Pete Freedman Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 First, the judges aren't judging content - at least not the way we fans are. The judges aren't passing judgment on dada or mirrors or chairs any more than they are expressing a view on Christmas or the common man. And that's as it should be. It's wonderful when angels and demons can come together in a championship package. But it doesn't happen every year, particularly when a corps as talented and successful as BD brings its unique artistic vision to the field as it does. ... Second, difficulty by itself seldom gets the credit it seeks. Cadets 2009 is the best recent example I know. That show heeped demand on demand but couldn't reach the summit because it couldn't meet the challenge. Achievement has to match demand or you leave an obvious gap the judges can't close. If BD has succeeded at anything since 1994, it has been to design shows with a level of demand the corps can achieve. Cadets often over-reach (or underperform). Crown came up short this summer too. Phantom, on the other hand, maxed out, I think. Yeah, I think the two keys in program selection are: 1. Exciting the corps members. The more enthusiastic they are, the more they will push to perform. 2. Anticipating the level of difficulty the corps will be capable of at finals. It's kind of like The Price Is Right; you've got to get it as high as possible without going over. This also means realistically evaluating how well you've done number one above. At the opposite extreme, the group of small corps I knew in the early 80s sometimes suffered from a vicious circle of dull music which had to be dead simple to play because the members weren't really into it. Low GE resulting in low execution. I remember an instructor telling us that another corps was "big, load and raunchy". And we thought to ourselves "then why do they sound so awesome from the parking lot, and why is the crowd cheering so much, and why are they outscoring us consistently? Could we try big, loud and raunchy too?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Freedman Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 If I was arguing they were the best, you'd be absolutely right. But you might want to re-read my post and make sure you understand it before replying- just a thought :-). I said he writes the most work, because every year that I've known where he was (I am not sure about 2012), they have had the most content. Certainly in 2010 and 2011 when he was with Blue Stars. I just wasn't sure where he was last year. But with the work their guard was doing, I would bet he was still in la Crosse. Of course. I was jes' funin' ya. Your quote could be (mis) interpreted to mean "whatever guard that guy works for, their doing some complex stuff," which I found amusing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mn trumpter guy Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Of course. I was jes' funin' ya. Your quote could be (mis) interpreted to mean "whatever guard that guy works for, their doing some complex stuff," which I found amusing. I suppose that's fair enough. And put like that... you're right, it sound extremely ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowtown Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 It could mean that the judges don’t know how to judge dancing horn lines so give BD the benefit of the doubt I liked BD this year way more than 2008, 09, 10 but not as much as 11 –but the readable forms were not that clean and if I extrapolate that to the dance, movement stuff, it’s looks like a third place show. See the Drum Corp Planet Fan Cam video for an example of an ugly build into a form…just prior to that were vertical ranks of 3 (I think) that arced and the contras were so off at the back end of it, and there were interval problems..…anyway, 2011 was so much cleaner A part of me feels that BD figured out during their lean run from 2000-2006, only 1 championship, that they can’t win often enough doing a drum corps show, so enter the new visual style of individual movement and running from prop to prop 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 I know Blue Devil fans think this is about other fans being jealous but that is not the case. The championship winning show doesn't have to be my favorite show of the finals. But it does have to be in my top 5 and the last 4 Blue Devil championship winning shows have been so blah to me. That's why I'm so frustrated with them winning. I'm sorry, but are you naive enough to think that the DCI sheets have ANYTHING to do with your personal enjoyment of a program?! Blue Devils won in 2012 because they were effective (note: effective DOES NOT equal entertainment) and because they were very clean. If Crown was cleaner, they would've won: it's that simple. Cadets won in 2012 because they were very effective and clean. Not coincidentally, their show didn't radically change design-wise from June-August, yet they didn't start winning shows until they got clean. I'm continually amazed at how many people seem to lack the understanding that DCI is not so much about designing the pinnacle of an entertaining show, but about design an effective show and then executing it near-flawlessly. While Blue Devils were not perfect in their Finals performance, they were significantly cleaner than everyone else in almost every caption. If Crown marched cleaner, and if their percussion section was quite a bit cleaner, they would've won. It really is that easy 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glory Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 ...I'm continually amazed at how many people seem to lack the understanding that DCI is not so much about designing the pinnacle of an entertaining show, but about design an effective show and then executing it near-flawlessly. While Blue Devils were not perfect in their Finals performance, they were significantly cleaner than everyone else in almost every caption. If Crown marched cleaner, and if their percussion section was quite a bit cleaner, they would've won. It really is that easy It can't be any other way. The judges don't and shouldn't judge content. They can only judge the execution of content. In theory, a corps performing a challenging program of Mein Kampf (or, for that matter, Springtime for Hitler) with precision and artistry deserves to score highly. And if no other corps can match its precision and artistry, that corps deserves to win even if we "liked" other shows more. The judges can't and shouldn't judge "like." HH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonW Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Fornicate Mr. Clean - bring back Big, Loud & Raunchy! hehe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mn trumpter guy Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 It can't be any other way. The judges don't and shouldn't judge content. They can only judge the execution of content. In theory, a corps performing a challenging program of Mein Kampf (or, for that matter, Springtime for Hitler) with precision and artistry deserves to score highly. And if no other corps can match its precision and artistry, that corps deserves to win even if we "liked" other shows more. The judges can't and shouldn't judge "like." HH I know you aren't ignoring this: but it would be extremely easy for a corps to clean a show where they do nothing but march 8 to 5 at 140 BPM, playing children's songs. Are you suggesting that a perfectly performed show I've described above should win over a dirty "For the Common Good," "Spartacus," or "Phenomenon of Cool" ? I hope not. I understand and agree: judges shouldn't judge if they "like" a show, but it should be taken into account that a corps is attempting something difficult. Theoretically, shouldn't the 'content' score stay more or less the same from show to show, barring re-writes, additions, etc.? And if so, do they? I haven't been keeping track, but I suspect they change as often as the execution score. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bchorn Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 (edited) I'm sorry, but are you naive enough to think that the DCI sheets have ANYTHING to do with your personal enjoyment of a program?! Blue Devils won in 2012 because they were effective (note: effective DOES NOT equal entertainment) and because they were very clean. If Crown was cleaner, they would've won: it's that simple. Cadets won in 2012 because they were very effective and clean. Not coincidentally, their show didn't radically change design-wise from June-August, yet they didn't start winning shows until they got clean. I'm continually amazed at how many people seem to lack the understanding that DCI is not so much about designing the pinnacle of an entertaining show, but about design an effective show and then executing it near-flawlessly. While Blue Devils were not perfect in their Finals performance, they were significantly cleaner than everyone else in almost every caption. If Crown marched cleaner, and if their percussion section was quite a bit cleaner, they would've won. It really is that easy No, I'm not naive. I feel this way because I've been watching drum corp for 25 years and never have I been so unsatisfied with a repeat world champion as I have been with the Blue Devils over the last 6 years. Now, I'm not saying my 25 years of drum corp makes me more special or makes my opinion more valid. I'm only sharing it because if i had felt this unsatisified when the Cadets were dominating the 80's or the Cavaliers were dominating the 00's then I would think it's just me not liking the reigning drum corp again. But because I've generally agreed with the judges in the past AND the fact that there is so much consternation from other fans about BDs winning right now, I definitely believe there is some merit to our argument here. Edited August 22, 2012 by bchorn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ApathyJones Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 No, I'm not naive. I feel this way because I've been watching drum corp for 25 years and never have I been so unsatisfied with a repeat world champion as I have been with the Blue Devils over the last 6 years. Now, I'm not saying my 25 years of drum corp makes me more special or makes my opinion more valid. I'm only sharing it because if i had felt this unsatisified when the Cadets were dominating the 80's or the Cavaliers were dominating the 00's then I would think it's just me not liking the reigning drum corp again. But because I've generally agreed with the judges in the past AND the fact that there is so much consternation from other fans about BDs winning right now, I definitely believe there is some merit to our argument here. Sounds pretty naive to me. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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