Fran Haring Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Any opportunity to look at Lauren Bacall is an opportunity not to be missed... :worthy: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamarag Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 OK... let's say 60 horns or so. My point is... I've heard plenty of G lines of 60 horns or so, too. And the Bucs' line last year was as loud, if not louder than those same-sized G lines. Yep, because volume has very little to do with key. There's also a difference between actual volume and perceived volume. The #1 overriding factor in volume is intonation, followed directly by tone quality and air. Arrangements are also absolutely a factor. The harsh truth is that very few G brass lines, particularly in the 70s and 80s, played with great intonation and tone quality. I can count the DCI lines that pulled it off consistently on one hand. It's even less in DCA. Tone quality and intonation are much easier to achieve in Bb/F instruments. Part of that is because they are generally constructed better, but familiarity is also a major factor. Anyone who says jumping back and forth between G and Bb/F is easy is deluded. They probably never really did it much or never taught lines that did. Sure, you can do it, but it's NOT the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 Yep, because volume has very little to do with key. There's also a difference between actual volume and perceived volume. Evidently there is, judging from what you say next. The #1 overriding factor in volume is intonation, followed directly by tone quality and air. Arrangements are also absolutely a factor. The #1 factor in volume is how loud the individuals play to begin with. Perception might differ due to the arrangements (imagine the same hornline playing Larry Kerchner chords vs. a warmup exercise). If tone quality is so distorted that the player is not really delivering a stable "tone", that will affect the volume - but that is not "tone quality", but rather, failure to produce tone. Intonation honestly does not correlate to volume in the context of a drum corps field performance. The harsh truth is that very few G brass lines, particularly in the 70s and 80s, played with great intonation and tone quality. I can count the DCI lines that pulled it off consistently on one hand. It's even less in DCA. Yet, there is a consensus of opinions that hornlines from back then were either equally loud or louder than hornlines of today. If intonation and tone quality were primary determinants of volume, that would not be possible. Tone quality and intonation are much easier to achieve in Bb/F instruments. Part of that is because they are generally constructed better, but familiarity is also a major factor. True today, since the better manufacturers do not make G horns. Anyone who says jumping back and forth between G and Bb/F is easy is deluded. They probably never really did it much or never taught lines that did. Sure, you can do it, but it's NOT the same. Jumping from one instrument to another, even just different models of the same instrument, is a challenge. How much of a challenge varies widely among different people and different situations. Suffice it to say, the real advantage in refining a large hornline is having them play the same horns for an extended time period without such switching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fran Haring Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 Bottom line, I think it comes down to the training of the players, not the key of the instruments. A well-trained B-flat line can, and does, put out some serious sound... and I agree with John, from what I've heard from any number of people who know these things (including him)... the B-flats are easier to keep in tune. But on the other hand, the horn line that is arguably the most in-tune marching brass line in the world... the U.S. Marine Drum and Bugle Corps... plays on G instruments. Of course, those folks are professional players... and with Major Brian Dix at the helm, they have one of the best music directors on the planet... so it goes without saying they are very well-trained. I love the sound the G lines put out, back in the day and currently, with the corps still playing them. But I have no problem at all with today's multi-key lines. They can bring the heat with the best of 'em. Just my two cents. Adjusted for inflation... less than one cent. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 volume may also be affected by todays visual demands. it's tough to crank out a ton of sound while running a 4 to 5 at 180 bpm. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donincardona Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 Bottom line, I think it comes down to the training of the players, not the key of the instruments. A well-trained B-flat line can, and does, put out some serious sound... and I agree with John, from what I've heard from any number of people who know these things (including him)... the B-flats are easier to keep in tune. But on the other hand, the horn line that is arguably the most in-tune marching brass line in the world... the U.S. Marine Drum and Bugle Corps... plays on G instruments. Of course, those folks are professional players... and with Major Brian Dix at the helm, they have one of the best music directors on the planet... so it goes without saying they are very well-trained. I love the sound the G lines put out, back in the day and currently, with the corps still playing them. But I have no problem at all with today's multi-key lines. They can bring the heat with the best of 'em. Just my two cents. Adjusted for inflation... less than one cent. fran as you know i'm a drummer. or i was so help me out here. aren't G horns meant to be played outdoors and so to be louder and Bb meant to be played in an inside venue so not to be as loud. that's how it was explained to me. and hy drietzer said drum corps should alway's be G morns. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegalEagle50 Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 fran as you know i'm a drummer. or i was so help me out here. aren't G horns meant to be played outdoors and so to be louder and Bb meant to be played in an inside venue so not to be as loud. that's how it was explained to me. and hy drietzer said drum corps should alway's be G morns. And because Hy said it, the activity should never change? No offense, but over the years thinking on many issues just in the drum corps activity have come to be considered a thing of the past. I realize some people may never agree on this subject, but saying because Hy Drietzer said it is like saying if you read it on the internet, it must be true. Bon Jour.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Oz Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 (edited) With all due respect … The concept that intonation is, “The #1 overriding factor in volume” is hogwash. Volume is determined by the transfer of power (see note below) from the source to the receiver. In this case, from a horn to an ear using air as the medium of transfer. The more power the source can put into the air, the more power will be presented to the receiver. Given multiple sources, the total power put into the air is the sum of the power of each source. It doesn’t matter if the two hours are playing the same note, the same note but not in tune, or different notes. It’s the sum of the power across all sources. The “perceived” volume argument is similarly a canard. Most often the physics cited is the additive effect of in-phase waveforms. Believe me, no horn player short of Gabriel can control the phase of a horn. Even if they could and even if the waveforms were in phase at one ear of a listener, they would be out of phase at the other ear. The only answer to this argument is to measure the power output of G and Bb instruments. I’ve not performed that experiment and know of no papers on the subject. Can we please end this discussion? Thank you, Mr. Wizard Note: Power is the rate at which work is done or energy is transmitted. Energy is the capacity to do work. Energy is power delivered over time. For this discussion, either power or energy is acceptable. Edited June 21, 2013 by The Oz 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajlisko Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 (edited) And because Hy said it, the activity should never change? :blink:/>/> No offense, but over the years thinking on many issues just in the drum corps activity have come to be considered a thing of the past. I realize some people may never agree on this subject, but saying because Hy Drietzer said it is like saying if you read it on the internet, it must be true. Bon Jour.... :wink:/>/> Liz ... you're way off base on this one ... having known and taught with Hy, I find it insulting that you genrealize, minimize and discount what one of the greatest arrangers in drum corps had to offer up as seer advice ... maybe you should look up the full article on Hy's comment and put it into the context of the question, which was about the introduction of two and three valve horns into drum corps ... the interview was done around 1976 ... I think it was done by DCW or a roving reporter at DCI ... maybe someone can post it ... Jack Meehan and Tommy Martin, two giants in drum corps brass, just made similar comments ... will you trivialize those as well? ... Andy "I know, I'm only a drummer" Lisko Edited June 21, 2013 by ajlisko 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegalEagle50 Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 I also disagree with some things Col. Crawford did. But that is another story for another day. Be as insulted by it as you wish Andy. I'm not saying Hy Drietzer wasn't good for his time. I'm saying that just because someone said something at that time, doesn't mean it works for all time IN MY OPINION. I really have no problem with people disagreeing with it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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