Can someone explain the G Bugles?

[Fred Windish]

Good arguement and points. I guess we all just speak from personal perspective... mine is that I held drum corps as something seperate and much more cool than school marching band. Of course the execution was better (drum corps), but the very nature of the unique instrumentation and sound is what made it cool and appealing to me. I always thought marching band was, well, lame (and I was in a good program) and drum corps was much cooler. The instrumentation was a very tangible difference, the fact we weren't playing "tubas and trumpets", but rather contras and sopranos. It just made it all so much more appealing. Plus the sound of a DCI line was different that a Bb band line. G bugles were high octane axes, purpose built for the sport of drum corps. If it were Bb band... wouldn't have been interested. I bet if someone traveled back to the 90's and went up to Blue Devils contra line and said "hey guys, cool tubas!" they'd have beat them senseless with their contras! Calling bugles trumpets/tubas/etc used to be total blasphamy! Of course we all played Bb instruments in our non-corps gigs (hell, I played woodwind and now make a living as a professional guitarist!) but in no way/shape/form would any of us wanted Bb band instruments in the horn line.

You have made MANY good observations, my friend, through so limited amount of posts!

Back in high school (late 60s) I was in my high school band. They were regionally impressive with 275 pieces, including 24 Sousaphones. BUT, I was also a Reading Buccaneer. In my eyes, THAT was something!

The band kids really were not on par . I always felt fortunate to have been part of drum corps. That wasn't just a similar activity, it was the next level. From what I read on these boards, there are several high schools now on par with the drum corps experience.

All in all, I realize the switch to B flat was an attempt to ensure survival of our little niche. But, it came at a price.

By the way, alumniof, I truly appreciate the Bama majorette photo. I once spoke with their instructor. I told her, I suspect twirling ability is not all that important. She smiled.

Roll Tide!

[Kansan]

You mean competitively, or just what would it sound like? To hear the old 2-valves in real time, check out the Marine Drum and Bugle Corps, still doin' it in the key of G.

Fred O.

Oh, I mean really use G bugles to compete.

[cixelsyd]

Or the recordings. Lot of advances in recording technology since 1972. I still think Crown this year could go toe-to-toe with any line from the past that people said were the loudest ever, and probably beat them on quality. Same with BD from the last few years. I went back through the last few days and listened to every championship show, and there were some bad, bad sounds coming out of hornlines through the 70s and 80s. Quality of sound did seem to improve through the 90s to what we have today.

Bear in mind that some of those recordings sound very different because of microphone selection and position. In particular, mics close to the sideline had more of a tendency to pick out individuals, such that the recording is nowhere near the balance and blend you would have heard in the bleachers. The stickouts you hear on 1978 or 1984 recordings are not accurate renditions of the performances.

[DAvery]

I think the reason for the conversion was two fold. Bb/F instruments are in the end cheaper. And they help recruitment. One thing no one has mentioned is the fact that all G bugle music was written in treble clef. So a trombone player comes into 1970's drum corps, has to learn to use a horizontal piston valve with one hand and a rotary valve with the other, in addition to learning how to read treble clef. Whether you come down on the side of Bb/F or G, the intonation now is WAY better than the 70's and 80's. Of course, that could be due to the instruments, or maybe just the players are better.

[JimF-LowBari]

One thing no one has mentioned is the fact that all G bugle music was written in treble clef. So a trombone player comes into 1970's drum corps, has to learn to use a horizontal piston valve with one hand and a rotary valve with the other, in addition to learning how to read treble clef.

As a trombone player who knew no fingerings it really didn't matter which clef it was in. Just mark the chart and read that until it sinks in. Made it a bit harder when note "names" where used (ex: Change the C in the third measure to an F ).

Just rememeber FACE and Every Good Boy Deserves F..... and not that hard....

Edited August 15, 2013 by JimF-LowBari

[MikeD]

But has it actually helped with youth involvement within DCI? Has youth involvement increased or decreased in the whole of DCI? Local, regional, and State bands do not cost the participants thousands and thousands of dollars to participate. Very few youth each summer actually have, and now attend, Interlochen because of that type of high cost. Moreover, many High Schools now have very high dues to participate in BOA type programs and they cannot justify paying those high dues for band 'and' drum corps. So, has the switch to Bb/F really been the huge benefit in which it was intended?

I was answering as post that said this among other similar ideas..."...The more DCI becomes BOA, the less desire to be a part of it I would think...". Your post has nothing to do with that. None of the above post has anything to do with what I was replying to. The ratiobnale that somehow G horns made drum corps more attractive than Bb/F in the eyes of potential members is what I was replying to. IMO that is just not true, and I disagreed with the posters assertions in my reply.

[ereese]

Recruiting? Is there really a recruiting problem? I don't remember a kid ever saying "wait a minute.....are you telling me that the instruments they use are the exact same fingerings but a different key? I'm out". "Hey, band directors, we're playing what you have! Do you like us now and think we're just so awesome". (Uh, no....we're still jealous and competition ruins kids). DCI, want to appease band directors? Drop competition, but even then realize.....band directors don't want to be happy or appeased. They just want to ##### about something and be glossed and considered really intelligent and liked by the peers they brown nose who kick their ### every time "their" band plays a long tone with a trillion overtones. I used to be a band director and have a degree in music ed so I feel completely qualified to make this statement. As dumb as some band directors are, I don't think they're "that" dumb to believe "hey, Crown plays Yamaha which means if you play Yamaha you'll sound like them". May work for Nike and football jerseys, but a crap budget to BD who hate business to begin with??? I played trombone and played baritone in drum corps OH MY GOD!!!! I HAD TO LEARN A WHOLE NEW SYSTEM. WHAT THE HELL ARE MY BRAIN CELLS GOING TO DO. I don't get the arguments.....we gloss these kids how smart and special they are....so much more advance than us because they can twitter at 6 months - yet, they can't play a G bugle when us idiots who couldn't figure out how to unscramble porn or stop the blinking light on the VCR did it with NO PROBLEMS. I feel like eating a squirrel everytime I hear the lame excuses served to us showing how ignorant and lost (if the excuses are true) why they can't find a way to simply please the general public. Newsflash - the general public likes something LOUD, ENTERTAINING AND THEY CAN TAP THEIR FOOT TO AND DANCE AND EAT (and drink). Can't drink at DCI? Really? Uneducational. Here's the education - you can drink as an adult. I'm not saying to turn this into one big Bush League but the bottom line is here is your audience - the people who marched DCI before, the general public and the kids parents who think there kids are awesome even if they are gutter trash (it's true). But, nobody wants to go to a science fair, a psychology course, a history lesson. Titanic, the movie, succeeded because of the love story - and it snuck in a history lesson at the same time. Brilliant. Jurassic Park - brilliant. You can teach us something without throwing some intellectual mind screw from beat one. Oh yeah.....I didn't get it. And DCI, you're killing music. You are PROVING that music is nothing more than background to something greater. Something to be done to, not something to listen to. It's a supporting cast, not the star.

spot-on

Edited August 15, 2013 by ereese

[funkjazzaxe]

Different horses for different courses... obviously for some, Bb vs G is a non-issue, or would actually help recruit because they already play a trumpet or tuba. But, for me anyways, the unique nature of drum & bugle corps was they played cool instruments- bugles- and I wanted to play a bugle! I could already play a trumpet or tuba in my school band, bugles (and their different sound/look/names) made it all much cooler. For me. So, in my case, it absolutely made me want to be a part of it. Trumpets/tubas were what band geeks (and I was one of them, of course!) played, bugles were what drum corps members played. Worked to recruit me! We (corps hornline) were proud to be sop/bari/contra players, given the option of playing band instruments in lieu of bugles, I don't think anyone would have preferred it. This was not that long ago... why are kids supposedly so different today?

[MelloMatt]

But has it actually helped with youth involvement within DCI? Has youth involvement increased or decreased in the whole of DCI? Local, regional, and State bands do not cost the participants thousands and thousands of dollars to participate. Very few youth each summer actually have, and now attend, Interlochen because of that type of high cost. Moreover, many High Schools now have very high dues to participate in BOA type programs and they cannot justify paying those high dues for band 'and' drum corps. So, has the switch to Bb/F really been the huge benefit in which it was intended?

My dues this year for band are somewhere from $2000-2500 not including spring trip... Part of the reason I didn't march this summer.

[Stu]

None of the above post has anything to do with what I was replying to. The ratiobnale that somehow G horns made drum corps more attractive than Bb/F in the eyes of potential members is what I was replying to. IMO that is just not true...

And my question to the supporters of the Bb/F within DCI was simply did the switch to Bb/F actually 'help' recruiting?

I was answering as post that said this among other similar ideas..."...The more DCI becomes BOA, the less desire to be a part of it I would think...". Your post has nothing to do with that.

The DCI/BOA situation harming each other is a revolving door, started imo by BOA, where BOA began emulating DCI (in many way including cost to participate); then DCI began emulating BOA (in many ways including the cost to participate); and it has now gotten to the point where the huge number of HS age youth who used to make up a large portion of the mid to lower placing corps are provided rather high quality BOA services by their home high school program (and the hs youth are now financially obligated to fork out a few thousands of dollars in due each marching band season to be a part of that hs band). See post #49 by MelloMatt and get back to me on whether or not my contention is on the right track or not.