Carolina Crown: Play charts that nobody else could play.

[kickhaltsforlife]

So from a brass guys viewpoint...

I agree more with Garfield.

But Jeff and Garfield aren't really arguing about much.

All the books brass/perc are all extremely musical. The top 4 were all awesome. And it's probably a tie between SCV and Crown as the "most musical" book for me. And what allowed that was a more musical and better arranged brass book that allowed the percussion arranging to get really musical for everything to gel. I didn't really gather than Crown was supporting brass... more like just playing right along with the brass. I've always gotten the same thing with most of the Shaw/Rennick productions also. Some real tasty, interesting, musical stuff going on between the brass/drums/pit.

For me Hannum's book wasn't really the problem... it was the performance. Even a brass guy can tell some of the clarity issues they had.. and outdoors especially that does effect upstairs somewhat... but the major hits were all pretty well aligned... the beginning of the show got pretty scary in quite a few of the FN videos I watched though and when I saw the show live outdoors... but finals week.. in the dome.. if there was dirt... I really couldn't hear it on any of the videos... and everything ensemble wise sounded pretty spectacular considering environmental demands throughout the show. That goes for everyone in the top 4. But yeah... I understand the performance issues... and they need to be taken care of. Which they have not... and honestly there were issues before Hannum and Beddis swapped... Hannum's books probably just help in highlighting some issues.. but I could be way off base... I'm just a brass guy like I said.

Back to the musicality. Where Cadets lose me is in their total product. Yeah the rep was tough... but the brass book was lacking and felt too safe, especially considering the rep they were playing. The brass book was a little to watered down to the original and the music lost some of it's written in effect. Some interesting stuff weaving the themes throughout. That was effective, but in design and performance it was lacking for me. The percussion book was so well written and so much more interesting that I lost interest in the brass at some points in the show. Not d I'to mention the performance level of the percussion.. the brass was AWESOME but the percussion performance was just on another level.

So... SCV and Crown.. for me I was interested in the entire musical product almost the whole time. Cadets, I was interested in the whole musical product most of the time, sometimes the brass lost me though.

And I'm not even going to bring BD into the conversation. Let's just say the show works very well with itself. I get it...well done. I just wasn't in to it.

And back to lurking mode.

[kickhaltsforlife]

One more thing... more on topic to the OP...

No one can do what Crown is doing musically right now. Their music design and mainly brass performance is just on a different level from everyone else.

BD, maybe SCV and Cadets could all play that book... BD probably the most proficient at it... but no way would it sound anything like what Crown sounds like. It's just the way they have been building that program at Crown. The way they get their members to commit to what they teach. The way they match sound, pitch, and articulation across the brass ensemble is just on a different level. I could care less what key it's in. I'm pretty sure they could do it all in the key of B if they wanted to. Any brass player should be impressed with what they are able to play with the simultaneous visual responsibilities.

And if they figure out that drumline... oh boy. It will be truly something spectacular.

And sorry if some fan/member/alumni of another corps gets all butthurt about this... but it is just the truth. Not saying your corps horns don't sound great... they just aren't Crown.

[skevinp]

I LOVE drum corps!

"How MUCH do you love drum corps, Garfield?" she asked.

He answered, "My love for corps has no limits, no bounds. Everything must have an ending except my love for corps."

[jwillis35]

I am not sure how Michael Klesch meant that statement. Technically Crown plays some amazing stuff, and have been for the past 4 or 5 years. But in terms of demand we've had other shows over the years that have been just as demanding musically. Not many, but some.

There was a lot of discussion about if this past CC production was the best and hardest brass book out there. It can certainly be argued, but after listening to the following years I'd put others in contention for that as well.

In no order:

Cadets 1997 (beastly brass book and percussion book, the opening number of this show is a stunning display of notes and rhythms)

Cadets 2001 (another extremely technical book)

Blue Devils 1999 (range, key, variety in style)

Blue Devils 1994 (mostly latin based but more variety in key and range than Crown from this year)

Star of Indiana 1990 - 1993 (very similar in design to Crown today, but vastly better drum lines to go with the brass)

Blue Devils 1988 (and with more soloistic and artistic variety I might add)

Garfield 1985 (Jeremiah Symphony and Candide Overture...wow)

Garfield West Side Story (rhythmically intracate with incredible variety in style and key and range)

There are other shows as well. On a whole I'd say Cadets, Blue Devils, and Star have had musical books in brass and drums that can rival or better what Crown did this year. Is Crown in the picture and was this year's brass line one of the elite lines of all time? It's certainly in the mix with the best. No doubt!

[IMcomguy]

They don't play anything any other top 12 corps couldn't pull off. They tend to have one of the better hornlines every year so they are pretty bold with their selections but it's not like the other top hornlines couldn't play the same stuff if they chose.

There is a big difference between play -- and play well.

I could give their book to an 8th grade band and they could play it. Will they play it well? Hell no.

[perc2100]

There is a big difference between play -- and play well.

I could give their book to an 8th grade band and they could play it. Will they play it well? Hell no.

And again, I think what makes the "elite" brass lines elite is that they do what works best for THEM: not necessarily what works best for their competitors. Crown chooses music that maxes out the sheets from both design and execution. It works great visually coordination wise, and Yes, I think Blue Devils would struggle playing Crown's 2012 show.

I also think Crown would struggle with Blue Devils 2012 show.

Not because of technical proficiency, but because those shows were designed for a specific group. Maybe I'm giving Mr. Klesch the benefit of the doubt in his meaning, and he was speaking more about Crown's design philosophy than in a "we play harder music, and better, than any other corps out there (though to be blunt if he was saying this in a purely egotistical/arrogant type of way he and Crown's brass lines have kinda earned that hubris IMO).

[perc2100]

I am not sure how Michael Klesch meant that statement. Technically Crown plays some amazing stuff, and have been for the past 4 or 5 years. But in terms of demand we've had other shows over the years that have been just as demanding musically. Not many, but some.

There was a lot of discussion about if this past CC production was the best and hardest brass book out there. It can certainly be argued, but after listening to the following years I'd put others in contention for that as well.

In no order:

Cadets 1997 (beastly brass book and percussion book, the opening number of this show is a stunning display of notes and rhythms)

Cadets 2001 (another extremely technical book)

Blue Devils 1999 (range, key, variety in style)

Blue Devils 1994 (mostly latin based but more variety in key and range than Crown from this year)

Star of Indiana 1990 - 1993 (very similar in design to Crown today, but vastly better drum lines to go with the brass)

Blue Devils 1988 (and with more soloistic and artistic variety I might add)

Garfield 1985 (Jeremiah Symphony and Candide Overture...wow)

Garfield West Side Story (rhythmically intracate with incredible variety in style and key and range)

There are other shows as well. On a whole I'd say Cadets, Blue Devils, and Star have had musical books in brass and drums that can rival or better what Crown did this year. Is Crown in the picture and was this year's brass line one of the elite lines of all time? It's certainly in the mix with the best. No doubt!

I find it kind of interesting (and possibly telling) that the most recent show on your list is more than a decade old. You obviously given this a bit of thought, and if the next more-recent contender of the best/hardest brass book is from over a decade ago then doesn't that kind of prove Klesch's point? If Crown is programming a musical book kinda unparalleled in a decade+ of drum corps design, the Klesch's statement holds up a bit, doesn't it? I know you leave the back door open saying, "there are other shows as well," and I have no doubt that a better trained brass person than I (whom, in full disclosure, is a percussionist, albeit with music ed. experience) could come up with a valid reason why other more recent shows are more difficult than Crown 2012. Or even more effective (I think BD 2012 was more effective).

Now, I'm a) unbiased with zero horses in this conversation as far as a home team or favorite, b) not giving this as much thought as you (as far as thinking in a critical "who's had more difficult music books in DCI history than Crown 2012" way) and c) kind of just conversing and not trying to debate. I'm not a DCI judge or designer who has to think about who's technically better and by how much and exactly why. I've gotten past that point as a fan, and try to just sit back and enjoy the shows. I do find these discussions interesting, and I certainly agree that all of the shows you mention above are pretty crazy difficult, even in for an activity chock-full of difficulty! IF nothing else, this discussion and your post in general will now "force" me to rewatch some old favorite drum corps shows. Again!

[SFZFAN]

There is a big difference between play -- and play well.

I could give their book to an 8th grade band and they could play it. Will they play it well? Hell no.

However - DCI world class hornlines are not 8th grade kids. I still maintain any of them could have played the book. I never said they could do it quite as well - Crown has a good hornline - that's obvious. Just not that much better than the other top corps.

[CCorps]

You KNOW the Crown staff is sitting back and laughing at how far DCP is dissecting one simple comment.

Has anyone marched Crown and another ensemble recently? Maybe they could weigh in on the level of demand based on their personal experiences.

[jjeffeory]

However - DCI world class hornlines are not 8th grade kids. I still maintain any of them could have played the book. I never said they could do it quite as well - Crown has a good hornline - that's obvious. Just not that much better than the other top corps.

Tosh!

I do not agree with you at all. There would be some major watering of parts. The balance and blend would be different. There are a lot of subtleties that would be lost even between BD and Crown. Now I believe that BD could pull off the book competently, but it just wouldn't sound the same. It just wouldn't be at that level. ....and if Crown played BD's book, or SCVs book.... The same thing... Now, Crown could pull off an old Star book, and it would probably be very close. But they share very similar playing philosophies and playing abilities. Even with corps with similar methodologies ( Madison, Troopers, Crown), I don't believe that Madison or Troopers could pull off Crown's book completely. They haven't had enough time with the system.

I'd imagine that the same would hold true with the percussion sections of various corps as well.