DCI membership votes overwhelmingly to allow ALL brass instruments in

[GUARDLING]

I'm not talking like or dislike. I'm talking the triad of effect and it's application. It's harped on in clinic after clinic in every judges association out there that to truly be effective, one must touch all parts of the triad a lot.

I know its just my opinion BUT I do think in many of the shows BD does they have done all that and then some...maybe not in any trqaditional way or the way some would like but YES they have met criteria...and no I 'm not going to get into a bd thread.....must be getting close to the season where all threads become BD or Hop....lol

[N.E. Brigand]

Each corps design staff provides in-depth explanations to the judges both prior to and during the season. These explanations are not provided to the general audience and thus the judges receive more in-depth 'engagement' than does the general audience.

So you don't know what Blue Devils' design staff actually told the judges about "Cabaret Voltaire"? Meaning it could have been as simple as, "While we recognize that actual Dada is not possible within the constraints of a DCI show, we have used the idea of Dada as an excuse to present a collage, and please notice all the cool details scattered throughout the show; we hope you like it", right? And had BD communicated that sort of statement to the audience, would you be satisfied?

There was no way to present real Dada on the field and comply with the DCI judging sheets; just as there was no way to present the actual Les Mis production or the actual opera Einstein on the Beach. This is not fraud, but merely adaptation to a particular medium.

Or Dvorak's New World Symphony or Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra, both of which, though used to fill out an entire drum corps show, are in their original form at least three times longer than DCI rules allow--not to mention written to be performed by a sitting orchestra not a marching corps. There is no way to present completely faithful versions of almost anything, and no reason for corps to try (the goal should be to create outstanding adaptations of other works to the drum corps idiom, even though defenders of electronics, strings, woodwinds, etc. sometimes seem to think that they ought to have an actual rock band on hand if they're performing a rock song). But some adaptations are more possible than others. I thought you were complaining that BD's "Voltaire" was too disconnected from the idea of Dada--and that BD had done litttle to help the audience understand that disconnect (thus leading the audience to suspect intellectual "fraud"), whatever they may have told the judges.

As for the reasons behind lack of public communication from the DCI judges and DCI corps staff, you would have to ask them.

Sorry, I meant that, since your previous post implied (to me) that you actually knew what BD's staff was telling DCI's judges, that maybe you knew how the judges responded in those meetings.

Ahhhh, you see this type of analyzing was not required for the general audience to become "engaged" with Between Angels and Demons, yet it won DCI. That show design accomplished both "engaging" the judges and "engaging" the general audience without the need for intellectual edification...

Well, as Jeff points out, "intellectual" is part of the "triad" of General Effect, so a corps avoids it at peril to their scores. And speaking for myself as one audience member, I was slightly disengaged (intellectually) from Cadets' 2011 show for the reasons I describe (just as you will apparently be disengaged by Blue Stars' show this summer); they made up for that flaw through the dazzling split-uniform concept and execution. I had even more trouble that year with the concept of Santa Clara Vanguard's The Devil's Staircase, whose entire premise of someone escaping from Hell was a non-starter for me: if you're in Hell, it's because you put yourself there, and no amount of physical action is going to get you out. (You don't have to believe in Hell to recognize this, just as you don't have to believe that Middle-earth or Earthsea actually exist to enjoy the writings of Tolkien or LeGuin.)

...where as Cabaret Voltaire only engaged the judges and a select few in the general audience who were educated on the historical aspects of the Cabaret Voltaire. Again if you want to educate and appeal to the intellect in order to "engage" you will have to also be willing to perform to an extremely smaller audience than if you want to entertain as a means of 'engagement'; Intellectual engagement will pack a small academic classroom but will leave a pro stadium an echo chamber.

Well, as others mentioned both in 2012 and in this thread, most people will at least have read a paragraph on Dada in their high school Western Civ. classes, though they may not remember it, and since it seems quite possible that BD had nothing more specific than that general knowledge in mind, they really didn't believe their show would be perceived as snobby turn off. It is possible that BD pushed a little too far with, e.g., the long quotes in German and French, which relatively few audience members could have been expected to understand, although BD supporters at the time said those recordings were meant merely for sound, not meaning, as in: "Isn't it cool to have random speech sounds behind the Apollo 13 theme?") Are you really objecting to appeals to your intellect while seeing drum corps--do you want an audience full of Britney Spears clones? (Spears in 2003: "Sundance is weird. The movies are weird — you actually have to think about them when you watch them.")

[Jeff Ream]

I know its just my opinion BUT I do think in many of the shows BD does they have done all that and then some...maybe not in any trqaditional way or the way some would like but YES they have met criteria...and no I 'm not going to get into a bd thread.....must be getting close to the season where all threads become BD or Hop....lol

in many shows I'll agree...1930, Mirrors...sure. not my cup of tea as a fan, but I get it.

Dada, no, that one I don't get.

and I'll be honest....I wasn't a honk for Crown last year either. I thought they tried way too hard to be super dooper intellectual at the expenses of the other parts of the triad.

[flammaster]

Stu, how do you know what BD was telling the judges? Not meaning that you're wrong; just curious about your sources. And why did none of the judges respond as a few people on these forums have done, both in this thread and back in 2012: that intellectually, BD's show was a fraud because it was not Dada at all?

Mind you, I'm not sure that "Angels and Demons" was intellectually effective either. Angels and demons fight and the angels win because ... well, who knows? If it were simply foreordained because one side was right and one was wrong, that's both unengaging (because there's no real suspense) and unhelpful (because in life, the good are frequently on the losing side).

I myself could care less about the "meaning" of a show. I just plain loved the music in both Cadets and Blue Devils shows those two years. Through a Glass Darkly is mty favorite show to listen to. Visually Hey it's great but for me the music is the most important. I could have done without the narration in Cabaret Voltare but I just loved that they combined music from two of my favorite shows and I also think it's cool because I had suggested that they combine those two pieces to Wayne a year before. (doubt that he took my suggestion but it's still cool)

[Stu]

So you don't know what Blue Devils' design staff actually told the judges about "Cabaret Voltaire"? Meaning it could have been as simple as, "While we recognize that actual Dada is not possible within the constraints of a DCI show, we have used the idea of Dada as an excuse to present a collage, and please notice all the cool details scattered throughout the show; we hope you like it", right? And had BD communicated that sort of statement to the audience, would you be satisfied?

My point is that: a) the communication to the judges exists an a way more intimate level than the communication to the general audience; b) this communication is in done a higher intellectual manner than any communication provided to the audience; c) this creates a huge imbalance in the perception of the GE triad placing way more 'engagement' weight on the intellectual side than the other legs of the engagement triad; and most importantly d) many, a huge majority, of paying fans who are going to fill a 65,000 seat stadium, as opposed to a small progressive art venue or academic concert hall, do not want to be intellectually edified via artistic engagement but rather entertained by high quality enjoyable performances.

... Or Dvorak's New World Symphony or Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra, both of which, though used to fill out an entire drum corps show, are in their original form at least three times longer than DCI rules allow--not to mention written to be performed by a sitting orchestra not a marching corps. There is no way to present completely faithful versions of almost anything, and no reason for corps to try (the goal should be to create outstanding adaptations of other works to the drum corps idiom, even though defenders of electronics, strings, woodwinds, etc. sometimes seem to think that they ought to have an actual rock band on hand if they're performing a rock song). But some adaptations are more possible than others. I thought you were complaining that BD's "Voltaire" was too disconnected from the idea of Dada--and that BD had done litttle to help the audience understand that disconnect (thus leading the audience to suspect intellectual "fraud"), whatever they may have told the judges.

a) This is why I did not consider the Cabaret Voltaire show 'fraud'; and b) my objection was that the show concept, whether communicated intimately to the audience or not, was way, way disconnected from the type of fans which fill 65,000 seat stadiums. And DCI designers should take this into consideration in the future if the activity is going to survive by performing in larger venues as opposed to small artistic/academic halls.

Sorry, I meant that, since your previous post implied (to me) that you actually knew what BD's staff was telling DCI's judges, that maybe you knew how the judges responded in those meetings.

I never sat in on any 'meetings' between BD and the judges; but I am fully aware of the design concepts, the clarifications, the attempted education of the judges to the show concepts, which are presented intimately to the judges by the design staff of each corps. This exclusive ‘engagement’ certainly does sway the way the GE sheets are interpreted; and certainly does create a huge disconnect in the way the general audience is ‘engaged’ with the various performances. So, with this disconnect there is no way the GE judges can gauge actual ‘audience engagement’.

Well, as Jeff points out, "intellectual" is part of the "triad" of General Effect, so a corps avoids it at peril to their scores. And speaking for myself as one audience member, I was slightly disengaged (intellectually) from Cadets' 2011 show for the reasons I describe (just as you will apparently be disengaged by Blue Stars' show this summer); they made up for that flaw through the dazzling split-uniform concept and execution. I had even more trouble that year with the concept of Santa Clara Vanguard's The Devil's Staircase, whose entire premise of someone escaping from Hell was a non-starter for me: if you're in Hell, it's because you put yourself there, and no amount of physical action is going to get you out. (You don't have to believe in Hell to recognize this, just as you don't have to believe that Middle-earth or Earthsea actually exist to enjoy the writings of Tolkien or LeGuin.)

a) While it is true that if a corps design team ignores the 'intellectual' portion of the triad it is at peril of damaging GE scores, the same does not really hold true for the other two legs. The other portions of the triad can be placed not only in the back seat but in the trunk of the car as long as the 'intellectual' engagement is driving the vehicle; b) I see this 'more weight placed on the intellect' as a huge detriment in filling the 65,000 seat stadiums with ticket purchasing fans supporting the activity; and c) as it applies to the 2014 Blue Stars, they seem to be on the flip side of this (which can be just as disconnecting) where it apparently just does not matter that the source material has nothing at all to do with the show concept which places the intellect portion of the triad in a lesser role than the other two portions of that triad.

Well, as others mentioned both in 2012 and in this thread, most people will at least have read a paragraph on Dada in their high school Western Civ. classes, though they may not remember it, and since it seems quite possible that BD had nothing more specific than that general knowledge in mind, they really didn't believe their show would be perceived as snobby turn off. It is possible that BD pushed a little too far with, e.g., the long quotes in German and French, which relatively few audience members could have been expected to understand, although BD supporters at the time said those recordings were meant merely for sound, not meaning, as in: "Isn't it cool to have random speech sounds behind the Apollo 13 theme?") Are you really objecting to appeals to your intellect while seeing drum corps--do you want an audience full of Britney Spears clones? (Spears in 2003: "Sundance is weird. The movies are weird — you actually have to think about them when you watch them.")

I just want the number of paying audience members to match the intended goals and occur in the venues which support those goals. If this is about artistic progression, edifying the audience, providing educational and artistic outlets to youth, (ie Philip Glass meets Dada performed in the style of the Kronos Quartet) then go with smaller venues because the number of people who will fork out big bucks for that philosophy is rather small. And by the way, that would be fine with me. However, if this is about Marching Music Major League Summer Music Games which engages in multi-multi-million dollar touring with a desire to fill up 65,000 seat stadiums in locations around the nation, then the idea of artistic progression intellectual edification needs to be replaced by raw, yet high quality, competitive entertainment. Does it have to be in the form of Britney Spears or Justin Bieber? Not necessarily. But in the manner of emulating high quality entertaining groups such as Dave Matthews Band, Rush, U2, etc… which can fill large venues? Yep.

Note: We have sort of swayed into the topic of 'flat judging' contained in another thread instead of staying with the intended topic of this thread which is the addition of all brass instruments.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Stu

[GUARDLING]

in many shows I'll agree...1930, Mirrors...sure. not my cup of tea as a fan, but I get it.

Dada, no, that one I don't get.

and I'll be honest....I wasn't a honk for Crown last year either. I thought they tried way too hard to be super dooper intellectual at the expenses of the other parts of the triad.

now I have used EOB in a winter program and it was received very well.....there was no need to explain anything and to be honest I made up a whole bunch of stuff and just fit it to the music...I loved CC last year only because of the attempt of the music and fitting to their theme BUT I could have cared less about any worm hole..love story...math equation..etc etc...was just cool from beginning to end musically and visually....JMO

[Jeff Ream]

now I have used EOB in a winter program and it was received very well.....there was no need to explain anything and to be honest I made up a whole bunch of stuff and just fit it to the music...I loved CC last year only because of the attempt of the music and fitting to their theme BUT I could have cared less about any worm hole..love story...math equation..etc etc...was just cool from beginning to end musically and visually....JMO

the story was a turnoff...well that and the battery performance

[jjeffeory]

For the record, not that I feel that my opinion matters much anymore, I think this decision by the DCI board members is a bad one which makes little sense for a number of reasons. I think it will definitely evolve into an expensive novelty variation on the core mission of what drum corps does best and will contribute only marginally to the musical production as today's pit does as well. From a visual standpoint it can only obfuscate the uniformity and clarity of the image.

Sousaphones have always seemed like a musically inferior solution to the need for a marching bass presence that the shoulder carried contras and tubas were a much better answer for. Hand muted french horns will definitely require amplification to be appreciated and are just plain clumsy to march with as are trombones.

The drum corps brand obviously is not that important to today's leaders of the activity who seem to be pursuing a goal which now seems quite foreign to me. I never felt like a dinosaur and thought I had a liberal view of the activity even though I have been involved since 1965. However, these proposed changes could alter the form of the activity such that it no longer exists in my mind...and that makes me sad.

The positive apect for sousaphones versus marching tubas is that sousaphones are less directional than tubas. Then again, the rest of the hornline is directional, so that still leaves out the sousaphones.

[Mello Dude]

The positive apect for sousaphones versus marching tubas is that sousaphones are less directional than tubas. Then again, the rest of the hornline is directional, so that still leaves out the sousaphones.

With all the synths doubling the tuba anyways....

[cixelsyd]

Well, as Jeff points out, "intellectual" is part of the "triad" of General Effect, so a corps avoids it at peril to their scores.

And it is not solely about the three elements of the triad, but also how each of those elements is evaluated.

Take "emotional" as an example. Back in the day, much of the emotional component of audience engagement was achieved by a style of brass performance that you simply do not hear in DCI today. The DCI award for high brass achievement is named after an arranger/instructor from that time whose slogan was "loud is good". Reflecting on that era, the stories of beloved hornline moments come from participants, fans, and yes, even judges.

Obviously, tastes have changed in the judging community since then. The recipe for emotional engagement uses much more sonority and a bit less volume. No one dares utter the Jim Ott slogan in DCI circles. And when speaking of favorite brass moments, fans and judges are not selecting the same moments as often as BITD.