MADISON SCOUTS 2015

[JohnZ]

cleaned up some posts to try to keep the discussion civil and on point. This thread deserves to stay open for the duration of the season - please keep it on track and take any other 'stuff' elsewhere... please.

[BigBadMadMan]

Due to the short length of the drum corps season now days, it's nearly impossible to make large wholesale changes to ones show and expect/experience quantum upward movement in score...Unfortunately, if you dont show up with "game" right out of the shoot, the seasonal "slotting" die is pretty well cast. For all of the pre-season hype and spin that this is a Madison show for the ages, unless a miracle occurs, right now this 2015 program looks to be a 9-12th place showing on finals night...And I believe 9th would be generous.

Agreed.

[FlamMan]

I love the Scouts, but is is discouraging to see the corps go through so many regime & staff changes, & to continually reinvent themselves, yet the quality of the corps & their placement doesnt change.

The corps that we know Madison wont beat: BD, Bloo, SCV, Cadets, Crown, PR, Cavies, BK, & they have fallen behind BS, with a few corps nipping at their heels.

Its very disappointing indeed.

Edited June 26, 2015 by FlamMan

[jjeffeory]

I love the Scouts, but it is discouraging to see the corps go through so many regime & staff changes, & to continually reinvent themselves, yet the quality off the corps & their placement doesn't change.

The corps that we know Madison wont beat: BD, Bloo, SCV, Cadets, Crown, PR, Cavies, BK, & they have fallen behind BS, with a few corps nipping at their heels.

Its very disappointing indeed.

The season is young. I believe that they will be fine. Maybe they won't beat those corps this year, but who knows? The important thing is to be classy, which all of the Scouts that I know in person are classy men.

There's a lot of good things going on at Madison, so you just gotta get through the lean times. What I see is they gotta crack the design aspect of competition. Anyway, stick with them and see how they do, we're only in the second week of this year! Go Madison!

[BlueByYou2000]

My question is simple. Is the staff they have capable of designing a top 5 show? Is it a staff issue, talent issue, or something else? It seems many of the recent shows are very similar even though they are not. What I mean is take any of the top 5 corps, you can absolutely identify and differentiate the corps shows from year to year. Madison's themes don't come through at the same level. It's almost as of Madison's shows of recent all kind of are the same?

[Kamarag]

My question is simple. Is the staff they have capable of designing a top 5 show? Is it a staff issue, talent issue, or something else?

You ask two very important questions here (I've removed the thematic argument, because it's a different discussion entirely).

Designing a top 5 level program is one thing, but you have to have the members at a talent level that can achieve it. The two go hand in hand. True story:

A good friend was on Madison's staff when Jim Mason rebooted the corps. I was teaching Teal Sound at the time, and other members of our brass staff had a conversation with our Madison staff friend. He told us about Mason's five year plan, and how it was vitally dependent on changing how the corps recruited...to make Madison a destination corps for the top talent in the country. Obviously this wasn't going to happen overnight, and the idea was to slowly raise the incoming talent level a little at a time.

I do think Madison was at least partially successful. They certainly raised the talent level between 2010 and 2013/14. I have former students who marched in the corps over that period, and they all say there was definite growth. The problem is that the corps didn't do nearly as good a job of retaining top talent after they had cultivated it. Several of those students, who told me they got a lot better while with Scouts, are now marching with other corps...top corps. So therein lies the challenge. Raising the talent, and raising the level of design...fast enough to retain talented members and staff.

That ain't easy.

[GUARDLING]

You ask two very important questions here (I've removed the thematic argument, because it's a different discussion entirely).

Designing a top 5 level program is one thing, but you have to have the members at a talent level that can achieve it. The two go hand in hand. True story:

A good friend was on Madison's staff when Jim Mason rebooted the corps. I was teaching Teal Sound at the time, and other members of our brass staff had a conversation with our Madison staff friend. He told us about Mason's five year plan, and how it was vitally dependent on changing how the corps recruited...to make Madison a destination corps for the top talent in the country. Obviously this wasn't going to happen overnight, and the idea was to slowly raise the incoming talent level a little at a time.

I do think Madison was at least partially successful. They certainly raised the talent level between 2010 and 2013/14. I have former students who marched in the corps over that period, and they all say there was definite growth. The problem is that the corps didn't do nearly as good a job of retaining top talent after they had cultivated it. Several of those students, who told me they got a lot better while with Scouts, are now marching with other corps...top corps. So therein lies the challenge. Raising the talent, and raising the level of design...fast enough to retain talented members and staff.

That ain't easy.

I remember those 5 year plans very well. When I marched there were alot of 3 year plans , unfortunately you would get to the end of year 2 and the plan would change so here we go again with another 3 year plan...lol...Difference now is you dont retain members , even if they dont move on to another corps, you dont have members for 5, 7 or 10 years like you did bitd. Things need to move much quicker. The lifespan of a member is nothing like it used to be . Of course , ( before someone says it..lol..there are a few who stay a very long time..ugh

Edited June 26, 2015 by GUARDLING

[Mad75]

The season is young. I believe that they will be fine. Maybe they won't beat those corps this year, but who knows? The important thing is to be classy, which all of the Scouts that I know in person are classy men.

There's a lot of good things going on at Madison, so you just gotta get through the lean times. What I see is they gotta crack the design aspect of competition. Anyway, stick with them and see how they do, we're only in the second week of this year! Go Madison!

Here's the larger point that so many don’t seem to understand with today’s activity...Back in the 70's, 80's, and to some extent, the 90's, the response of, "hey, hang in there, we're only 2 weeks into the season", or, "they've got time", or, "they’ll make the right changes", might have worked back then...BUT, today, that's fairytale stuff! The reason?...several fold. Today, the activity is awash in parody/sameness. You see it in practically every aspect of these corps, especially for most if not all of the bottom 6 (and lower). You don’t have a lot of separation in quality of design, writing and talent...Close your eyes, and you can’t tell one corps from the other (it wasn’t always this way). Couple all of that parody with an incredibly short season and it takes nothing short of a miraculous event to make leap frogging strides upward. All of this monolithic parody is improving upwards together throughout the short summer and it ends up being nothing more than predictable simple math. This is why I've been able to accurately pick Madison's final's placement for many years now after only seeing them perform their first several shows of the season. Championships (and huge improvements from the previous season) are won and lost in the off season. Sorry if my words/logic are/is upsetting to some of you, but there also used to be a time when we were not so easily offended.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Mad75

[FlamMan]

Here's the larger point that so many don’t seem to understand with today’s activity...Back in the 70's, 80's, and to some extent, the 90's, the response of, "hey, hang in there, we're only 2 weeks into the season", or, "they've got time", or, "they’ll make the right changes", might have worked back then...BUT, today, that's fairytale stuff! The reason?...several fold. Today, the activity is awash in parody/sameness. You see it in practically every aspect of these corps, especially for most if not all of the bottom 6 (and lower). You don’t have a lot of separation in quality of design, writing and talent...Close your eyes, and you can’t tell one corps from the other (it wasn’t always this way). Couple all of that parody with an incredibly short season and it takes nothing short of a miraculous event to make leap frogging strides upward. All of this monolithic parody is improving upwards together throughout the short summer and it ends up being nothing more than predictable simple math. This is why I've been able to accurately pick Madison's final's placement for many years now after only seeing them perform their first several shows of the season. Championships (and huge improvements from the previous season) are won and lost in the off season. Sorry if my words/logic are/is upsetting to some of you, but there also used to be a time when we were not so easily offended.

This is 100% spot on. Where do you see the Scouts finishing? 10th?

[Kamarag]

Here's the larger point that so many don’t seem to understand with today’s activity...Back in the 70's, 80's, and to some extent, the 90's, the response of, "hey, hang in there, we're only 2 weeks into the season", or, "they've got time", or, "they’ll make the right changes", might have worked back then...BUT, today, that's fairytale stuff! The reason?...several fold. Today, the activity is awash in parody/sameness. You see it in practically every aspect of these corps, especially for most if not all of the bottom 6 (and lower). You don’t have a lot of separation in quality of design, writing and talent...Close your eyes, and you can’t tell one corps from the other (it wasn’t always this way). Couple all of that parody with an incredibly short season and it takes nothing short of a miraculous event to make leap frogging strides upward. All of this monolithic parody is improving upwards together throughout the short summer and it ends up being nothing more than predictable simple math. This is why I've been able to accurately pick Madison's final's placement for many years now after only seeing them perform their first several shows of the season. Championships (and huge improvements from the previous season) are won and lost in the off season. Sorry if my words/logic are/is upsetting to some of you, but there also used to be a time when we were not so easily offended.

Well, your conclusion is sound but your reasoning is a bit suspect. Yes, it's FAR more difficult to make major improvements during the season. But no, it's not because of "sameness". Parity is absolutely a factor, but it's because the average quality of corps is orders of magnitude better than it was "back in the day".

Thirty years ago (even twenty to a smaller extent), corps hit tour far less prepared in terms of overall quality than they do now (especially in brass). Corps are better instructed and with a higher average level of talent than at any point in history. The result is that with that level of preparedness, there's less room to improve overall.