Return the power to the performers (?)

[cixelsyd]

Going back to the original post of this thread.

More and more I see people on DCP saying things like 'The adults have more to do with the outcome than the kids' or 'the design is what is being judged' or 'let's put the emphasis on performance rather than design' or some such. The implication is that this has somehow gotten worse over the years.

Didn't the great instructors of the past have just as much to do with show outcome as today? Can we imagine the success of Spirit without Ott? Garfield without Zingali, Prime and Aungst? BD without Downey and Float? And so on and so on.

Curious that when you refer to the past, you call the most influential adults "instructors", rather than "designers".

These people served in both roles, of course. But we remember them for what they did to improve performance levels as well as for what they did to improve design.

[BRASSO]

It isn't, but you can keep telling yourself that. Without excellent performance, you get zero credit for design, no matter how good or bad. That's the way the system was designed, and it's working very well.

You can keep telling yourself that GE is not primarily a Show Design caption ( with acknowledged performance execution a partial element of it ) but it does not make it true. GE is NOT considered primarily a performer based execution caption. Percussion is. Brass is. Guard is. These are ( or until just a couple of years ago ) almost exclusively performers performance execution captions. Noone has said that Performance Execution is not part of the GE caption. As it is. But you make it sound like the GE caption is Performer based. it is not. It only has some small elements of it. General Effect ( GE ) is primarily an adult created Show Design caption. If the performers performance execution were a big factor in the GE caption, than no Corps finishing as low as 6th, 7th in Percussion, Brass or Guard could possibly finish 1 or 2 in Total GE. It logically won't fit for you. Or for anyone else for that matter. Corps HAVE won DCI Titles finishing 6th, 7th in the Performance Execution Captions, but never not medaling in Total GE. GE is primarily a Show Design caption, no matter how many times that you ( or anyone else here for that matter ) attempts to tell yourself it is performer based. We have the Performer based, execution captions. GE is primarily the Show Design. How the overall show design sells to the GE judges ( despite perhaps a 6th, 7th etc, woefully subpar performers performance execution in Percussion, Brass, and / or Guard ).

Edited August 31, 2015 by BRASSO

[C.Holland]

you make it sound like the GE caption is Performer based. it is not. GE is primarily a Show Design caption, no matter how many times that you ( or anyone else here for that matter ) attempts to tell yourself it is performer based. We have the Performer based, execution captions. GE is primarily the Show Design. How the overall show design sells to the GE judges ( despite perhaps a 6th, 7th etc, woefully subpar performers performance execution in Percussion, Brass, and / or Guard ).

This is correct. Otherwise why do staffs sit in critique? The performance based captions are cut and dry. (clean this stuff up, the score will go up) But those are not equal performance captions. Because attempt and recovery do get credit.

But you have staffs sitting in GE having to explain shows to evaluators so that scores can go up, and argue that what they are doing (or have planned) is going to trump someone else. Or that this is supposed to be a cluster#### on the field, and you just don't get it.

[Tenoris4Jazz]

As it relates to subjectivity and the casual fan... my hometown newspaper sports guy wrote a post season "awards" column for football. Knowing nothing about judging a marching show, but having seen over a dozen halftime performances during the year, he said the best band was the one that played "Tequila" as part of their show. Forget that it's a song hardly worth playing in the stands for 10 seconds... he "liked" the song (GE!!!!) and therefore ignored the fact that the other three local HS bands were far superior in execution. I think this reinforces the fact that the "casual fan" judges a show more on how much they know and like the music and how much they "get" what's going on with the guard and story.

[Tenoris4Jazz]

But you have staffs sitting in GE having to explain shows to evaluators so that scores can go up, and argue that what they are doing (or have planned) is going to trump someone else. Or that this is supposed to be a cluster#### on the field, and you just don't get it.

I have always had a problem with this. If the professional judge can't figure out what it is that you are doing or are supposed to be doing, that's a design issue, not a judging issue. Poor communication of the theme SHOULD knock your GE score down a bunch, and you shouldn't get points back because you wrote an essay to explain yourself to the judges.

[MikeD]

You can keep telling yourself that GE is not primarily a Show Design caption ( with acknowledged performance execution a partial element of it ) but it does not make it true. GE is NOT considered primarily a performer based execution caption. Percussion is. Brass is. Guard is. These are ( or until just a couple of years ago ) almost exclusively performers performance execution captions. Noone has said that Performance Execution is not part of the GE caption. As it is. But you make it sound like the GE caption is Performer based. it is not. It only has some small elements of it. General Effect ( GE ) is primarily an adult created Show Design caption. If the performers performance execution were a big factor in the GE caption, than no Corps finishing as low as 6th, 7th in Percussion, Brass or Guard could possibly finish 1 or 2 in Total GE. It logically won't fit for you. Or for anyone else for that matter. Corps HAVE won DCI Titles finishing 6th, 7th in the Performance Execution Captions, but never not medaling in Total GE. GE is primarily a Show Design caption, no matter how many times that you ( or anyone else here for that matter ) attempts to tell yourself it is performer based. We have the Performer based, execution captions. GE is primarily the Show Design. How the overall show design sells to the GE judges ( despite perhaps a 6th, 7th etc, woefully subpar performers performance execution in Percussion, Brass, and / or Guard ).

I don't think John claimed GE was a "performer based execution caption". The performance portion of the sheet is 1/2 of the sheet, but it is not an execution subcaption...it is the performance of the show to generate the intended effects of the written material. Does a swing-written piece swing as performed by the ensemble? Does a high energy-designed piece of material comwe across that way in the performance of the members? If a moment of the show is designed to generate pathos, does the performance of the ensemble bring that element across. It is not about "execution". Of course the performance of the show has to be clean enough for the desired effects to be audible or visible, but it is not designed to be tracking the execution aspects of the book.

[BRASSO]

I have always had a problem with this. If the professional judge can't figure out what it is that you are doing or are supposed to be doing, that's a design issue, not a judging issue. Poor communication of the theme SHOULD knock your GE score down a bunch, and you shouldn't get points back because you wrote an essay to explain yourself to the judges.

I totally agree with this as well.. The most fundamental premise of the Performing Arts is to communicate thru Dance and/ or Music ( or artistic expression ) a message or theme sans the spoken word. If a performer, or a performance has to have an oral explanation of what is taking place with the Work(s), then it sort of defeats the essential premise of the communication to the audience via the cleverly creative artistic expression of the performance itself. And yes, judges should factor this into with their GE scores more, if the theme messaging at the end of the performance is left somehow confusing or unclear to that GE judge(s). Perhaps they are currently doing so, but I'm not so convinced that they are to the degree they should either.

Edited August 31, 2015 by BRASSO

[N.E. Brigand]

You said that Carolina Crown could not have won a championship ten years ago with a sixth-place percussion line.

I think I proved you wrong by showing that a corps did win a championship thirty-five years ago with a sixth-place percussion line.

Unless you meant:

--(1) That only Carolina Crown could not have thus won ten years ago; or

--(2) That the rules changed between 1980 and 2003 in such a way that it became impossible for corps with sixth-place percussion lines to win, and then changed again after 2003 to make that possible again.

Did you mean one of those two things?

If you did not, am I correct that I have shown your statement about Crown circa 2003 to be false?

You seem like a reasonably bright guy, N.E. Brigand. As such then, you know that with just about anything--drum corps-related or not--there are almost, without exception, more than two possibilities for things. And thus, there is with this as well. Since you only saw fit , however, to provide me two choices here (instead of merely asking me nicely to expand and / or clarify in more detail for you my remarks on this above), then I will simply respond to your limited two choices provided to me here with my reply of . . . "neither".

OK, I'll stipulate that in my frustration with your discussion style, in which I find it very hard to determine what you mean, I responded a bit aggressively above. My apologies.

Yesterday I asked you an open-ended question above: "What did you learn from the fact that no corps has ever won a DCI title since the inception of DCI in 1972 without medaling in the total GE caption". A GE caption that is primarily (but not exclusively) an adult-created "show design" caption"? (With the knowledge you have now that multiple corps have won a title, however, despite not medaling and finishing as low as 6th and 7th in the purely performer-based, performance-execution captions, such as percussion, brass, guard?) Chronologically, I asked you this question first, and before you gave me just two choices here this morning to choose as a reply for your question of me now. If you take the time to respond to my open-ended question I asked of you yesterday, then I can consider the very likely possibility of my expanding later today on your question posed of me here now. Does this sound like a reasonable request of you on how to continue the proper dialogue between us on this?

Here's what I learned: G.E. now is no more important, and perhaps less important, than it was in the past, so any calls for a "return" to a past in which G.E. is less important (and I should note that this thread's O.P., mfrontz, did not make such a call) are suspect.

G.E. has always been so important to drum corps that no corps (as far as I noticed) has won a championship while placing lower than second in overall G.E. or third in any G.E. component. It was possible to win the title while placing as low as sixth in an execution caption in DCI's first decade. It is possible to do so in this decade. Therefore it makes no sense to claim that some subsequent change in rules or procedures, like the use of partial judging panels for early-season shows, have made G.E. more important than it used to be.

And in fact, this year, for what looks like the first time ever, the champion corps actually received one fourth-place G.E. score (albeit one that was combined with a third-place G.E. score to result in an average of third in that G.E. caption). It is of course too soon to say, but if that 2015 result were to become a trend, then G.E. might be less important than it has been throughout DCI's history to date.

[C.Holland]

Yeah. I'm sure lots of us want this to be a "communication" caption, instead of general effect.

But currently its not. All staff's talk about what they're doing, what they are bringing (or what they should change), and yes, sometimes is related to "well we do this, but they do that and not nearly as well".... blah blah blah.

Game on unfortunately.

I totally agree with this as well.. The most fundamental premise of the Performing Arts is to communicate thru Dance and/ or Music ( or Artistic Expression ) a message or theme sans the spoken word. If a performer, or a performance has to have an oral explanation of what is taking place with the Work(s), then it sort of defeats the essential fundamentals of the communication to the audience via the Artistic Expression itself. And yes, judges should factor this into with their GE scores more, if the theme messaging is left somehow confusing or unclear to that GE judge(s)

[MikeD]

I totally agree with this as well.. The most fundamental premise of the Performing Arts is to communicate thru Dance and/ or Music ( or Artistic Expression ) a message or theme sans the spoken word. If a performer, or a performance has to have an oral explanation of what is taking place with the Work(s), then it sort of defeats the essential fundamentals of the communication to the audience via the artistic expression of the performance itself. And yes, judges should factor this into with their GE scores more, if the theme messaging at the end of the performance is left somehow confusing or unclear to that GE judge(s)

I think it is fair for the meetings to be a place where specifics bits and pieces of the show are explained as to how they fit into the message. if the judge watches the show and basically says "I got nuthni" in understanding the concept...that IS a problem, IMO.