BRASSO Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 (edited) Michael Klesch writes great arrangements for Brass lines.... and more importantly, imo... for Drum Corps fans. Edited August 25, 2016 by BRASSO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrothgar15 Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 Crown often has the most musical show at the beginning of the season, but as they make more adjustments based on feedback/tweaks, a lot of that musicality gets sacrificed and they don't really end up that much more musical than other corps (in my opinion). Happened in 2014, 2015 and 2016 from what I remember. True, although what changed in 2016 besides lengthening the ballad, the watered down closer run, and the ending? 2014...let's not get into what happened to that closer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrothgar15 Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 Michael Klesch writes great arrangements for Brass lines.... and more importantly, imo... for Drum Corps fans. I can't believe he started doing that at age 23...and with a championship-winning brass book, at that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 True, although what changed in 2016 besides lengthening the ballad, the watered down closer run, and the ending? 2014...let's not get into what happened to that closer. To be clear, runs make up a tiny fraction of what I mean with musicality. I'm talking about including fluent and frequent use of a variety of different types of phrases over the course of an entire show, always paying meticulous attention to tone quality, balance, intonation, and articulation. If they have to sacrifice any of those things for the sake of a run or two (we're talking seconds of playing time here), they hose it down a little, which I think is wonderful, and diminishes their musicality not one iota. I don't think it's too subjective of me to say that Crown pays as much or more attention to those things over the course of an entire 12 minute production as any other corps in recent history. It's a gift for this particular old codger's tastes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobias Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 I'm sure all 10+ of the judges got into a back room and aligned their scores so Crown placed 3rd......I think that's terrible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrumManTx Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 (edited) I think that's terrible. I was being sarcastic. When someone implies the judges decided to place a corps third, that's what would have to happen. Which is why I find that idea totally absurd. Edited August 25, 2016 by DrumManTx 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skevinp Posted August 26, 2016 Share Posted August 26, 2016 I think that's terrible. Me too. Those back room judges should have aligned it so they came out second at least. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobias Posted August 26, 2016 Share Posted August 26, 2016 I was being sarcastic. When someone implies the judges decided to place a corps third, that's what would have to happen. Which is why I find that idea totally absurd. If you believe it's all about performances I think you're wrong. Not sure how "multi point spreads" happen over night and for the past several seasons, to the Cadets. Granted 2016 design had problems BUT this happened 2014,15,16. If you believe the toxicity of their director has nothing to do with that..... And just assembling a non favorable panel for any corps can move you down a spot or two. Judges are human, they hsve biases, interactions good and bad with corps staff off season. This happens in the real world, why do you think DCI judges are immune? Cadets were really 6th in music? Maybe 4th but not 6th...Sorry.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrumManTx Posted August 26, 2016 Share Posted August 26, 2016 (edited) If you believe it's all about performances I think you're wrong. Not sure how "multi point spreads" happen over night and for the past several seasons, to the Cadets. Granted 2016 design had problems BUT this happened 2014,15,16. If you believe the toxicity of their director has nothing to do with that..... And just assembling a non favorable panel for any corps can move you down a spot or two. Judges are human, they hsve biases, interactions good and bad with corps staff off season. This happens in the real world, why do you think DCI judges are immune? Cadets were really 6th in music? Maybe 4th but not 6th... Sorry.. Okay......these are my opinions. I never said it was all about performances. Well design has to count some or we'd be watching and listening to crap or really easy/boring stuff every year and I wouldn't have interest in the activity any more. Design matters a ton, but you have to have performers to bring it to life. I don't think design and performance are as isolated and separate as you think. They are pretty intertwined. I have seen lots of great corps being drug down by a show that isn't up to par, but I have also seen some corps with shows that have huge potential but are just not being pulled off because they can't get it clean/fleshed out enough. But I've also seen some corps with a slight deficit in design pull off a win over corps with a slight deficit in performance, and vice versa. Since you're bringing Cadets up, if you wanna tell me they placed 6th because of design, go watch their shows and who beat them again with an objective eye that was just because of design. Quite frankly I'm surprised how clean they got with how constantly changing that show was. I never even mentioned the director, I'm not using that excuse. I don't know Hopkins and I have never ever been around him. I have never said that or used it as a point. That happened because better shows were being sold just as well or better. Harder/as well performed when your show isn't up to par with the ones that beat you doesn't mean much when the quality isn't there design wise. They might have been a little cleaner than Blueoats in 2014, but when your show is comparatively sterile and incredibly tired and done a billion times conceptually, of course there is a chance you'll get passed up on finals night when the more exciting/better designed show is on fire the same night. 2015 was technically impressive musically, very much so, but besides the obvious issues thematically they did not get as clean visually as the top 3, and I'm not just talking about the color guard. I'm not gonna pick apart this year again. It's not as if the corps that beat them sound and march poorly and Cadets were squeaky Blue Devils 2014 clean across the board themselves. That was not all because of design and is discounting/insulting to the talent of Blue Devils, Bluecoats, Carolina Crown, The Cavaliers, and Santa Clara Vanguard quite frankly. I am so sick of the favorable/non favorable panel crap. All I heard each night of championships was "Thursday is a Bluecoats panel, Friday is a Blue Devils panel, and Saturday is DEFINITELY a Carolina Crown panel". I don't know how many people I saw say that because Saturday was a supposed "Carolina Crown" panel, they were going to magically win or place above Blue Devils. Guess what? The result was the exact same each night. And I don't think that's a conspiracy. I think everyone placed where they deserved to. If you have to rely on saying a panel is why someone will win or lose, you've already lost that argument. Judges have biases and preferences? Probably and definitely, but it's not the conspiracy level, assembling panels biased to certain corps and favorable to other corps crap that gets thrown around. They're human, not evil conspirators plotting who they want where. That idea is so absurd. As far as 6th in music, was a little surprised. Cavaliers had a phenomenal finals night run in percussion, and besides that I was not on the field to hear them. Carolina Crown did as well. The way Cadets battery was staged did not do them any favors either. As far as brass, maybe a judge sampled parts of Cavaliers that just happened to be better than what they sampled of Cadets on finals night. I don't know, I wasn't there on the field with them. And in terms of the spreads opening up on finals night and championships week, it's the last show. No more giving credit for things that could improve/clean, no more that's hard so I'll give the book credit for when it develops, no more getting first reads, it's it. It's what you have and nothing else. Cadets have felt like they were trying to hold onto their placements and add what they can to salvage the show going into finals week the last few years, and the corps that beat them always feel like they're finally peaking and coming alive with shows that have naturally grown and progressed. That just seems like good old fashioned momentum to me. Those years are over. I was ###### at some placements the last few years. But I just accepted the fact that their shows were not as strong as the ones that beat them, came to accept it, didn't blame it on bad panels, bias, a corps director, favoritisms, and other stuff. The others were just better. That's it. Now onto Carolina Crown 2017...... Edited August 26, 2016 by DrumManTx 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cappybara Posted August 26, 2016 Share Posted August 26, 2016 Okay......these are my opinions. I never said it was all about performances. Well design has to count some or we'd be watching and listening to crap or really easy/boring stuff every year and I wouldn't have interest in the activity any more. Design matters a ton, but you have to have performers to bring it to life. I don't think design and performance are as isolated and separate as you think. They are pretty intertwined. I have seen lots of great corps being drug down by a show that isn't up to par, but I have also seen some corps with shows that have huge potential but are just not being pulled off because they can't get it clean/fleshed out enough. But I've also seen some corps with a slight deficit in design pull off a win over corps with a slight deficit in performance, and vice versa. Since you're bringing Cadets up, if you wanna tell me they placed 6th because of design, go watch their shows and who beat them again with an objective eye that was just because of design. Quite frankly I'm surprised how clean they got with how constantly changing that show was. I never even mentioned the director, I'm not using that excuse. I don't know Hopkins and I have never ever been around him. I have never said that or used it as a point. That happened because better shows were being sold just as well or better. Harder/as well performed when your show isn't up to par with the ones that beat you doesn't mean much when the quality isn't there design wise. They might have been a little cleaner than Blueoats in 2014, but when your show is comparatively sterile and incredibly tired and done a billion times conceptually, of course there is a chance you'll get passed up on finals night when the more exciting/better designed show is on fire the same night. 2015 was technically impressive musically, very much so, but besides the obvious issues thematically they did not get as clean visually as the top 3, and I'm not just talking about the color guard. I'm not gonna pick apart this year again. It's not as if the corps that beat them sound and march poorly and Cadets were squeaky Blue Devils 2014 clean across the board themselves. That was not all because of design and is discounting/insulting to the talent of Blue Devils, Bluecoats, Carolina Crown, The Cavaliers, and Santa Clara Vanguard quite frankly. I am so sick of the favorable/non favorable panel crap. All I heard each night of championships was "Thursday is a Bluecoats panel, Friday is a Blue Devils panel, and Saturday is DEFINITELY a Carolina Crown panel". I don't know how many people I saw say that because Saturday was a supposed "Carolina Crown" panel, they were going to magically win or place above Blue Devils. Guess what? The result was the exact same each night. And I don't think that's a conspiracy. I think everyone placed where they deserved to. If you have to rely on saying a panel is why someone will win or lose, you've already lost that argument. Judges have biases and preferences? Probably and definitely, but it's not the conspiracy level, assembling panels biased to certain corps and favorable to other corps crap that gets thrown around. They're human, not evil conspirators plotting who they want where. That idea is so absurd. As far as 6th in music, was a little surprised. Cavaliers had a phenomenal finals night run in percussion, and besides that I was not on the field to hear them. Carolina Crown did as well. The way Cadets battery was staged did not do them any favors either. As far as brass, maybe a judge sampled parts of Cavaliers that just happened to be better than what they sampled of Cadets on finals night. I don't know, I wasn't there on the field with them. And in terms of the spreads opening up on finals night and championships week, it's the last show. No more giving credit for things that could improve/clean, no more that's hard so I'll give the book credit for when it develops, no more getting first reads, it's it. It's what you have and nothing else. Cadets have felt like they were trying to hold onto their placements and add what they can to salvage the show going into finals week the last few years, and the corps that beat them always feel like they're finally peaking and coming alive with shows that have naturally grown and progressed. That just seems like good old fashioned momentum to me. Those years are over. I was ###### at some placements the last few years. But I just accepted the fact that their shows were not as strong as the ones that beat them, came to accept it, didn't blame it on bad panels, bias, a corps director, favoritisms, and other stuff. The others were just better. That's it. Now onto Carolina Crown 2017...... Post of the thread. You can't say "Cadets weren't 6th in music" unless you were on the football field with the judge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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