Carolina Crown 2023

[Grandpa Joe]

4 minutes ago, skevinp said:

It should be clear from my post that I’m not saying placements don’t matter at all.  They may well be a necessary component to motivate and make people better and make things more interesting.  But I don’t think it is healthy or helpful to obsess over them.  

And you seem to have missed my point entirely that used Boston as an example.  I never said anyone was complaining about them.  My point is placements are affected by things beyond our control so it is a fallacy to place so much meaning in them.  If Boston hadn’t moved up in the last couple of years, Crown would be third.  But then if SCV hadn’t dropped out this season, they might be fourth again.  The point is none of that is within Crown’s control, so why place so much value on it.  

I suspect many of the people who are saying placements don’t matter don’t really mean they don’t matter at all.  Just that they don’t matter more than everything else.

Placement is very much in the control of the performers and the designers. If you're not designing and performing to win, then save the money and stay at home. Yes the educational aspect of it is certainly one that has heavy weight to drum corps, but if one of your goals isn't to place better than last year or to win, then save a ton of money and find an exhibition corps. Like someone has already said, most corps didn't travel out in 2021, some due to the pandemic, but not having a competitive season is also a cause of that. Placements do matter, and I think they matter a little more than what everyone wants to think. Placement effects a lot of things outside of just how you're remembered or how the members feel in that moment. 

[TOC]

3 hours ago, Grandpa Joe said:

To the people saying placements shouldn't matter, placing 4th shouldn't matter again, I ask you this: why even watch a competitive activity then if placement doesn't matter? If you're not in it to push to win, then what's the point? 4th place for 3 years now, I don't want them to go 4 for 4, but it's extremely hard to keep up the positivity because apparently they cannot climb out of that 4th placement death trap they've been in, and eventually the corps behind them will start to push them further down than 4th.  

Thankfully, all the corps who took decades to make top 12 and other still active corps who still haven't made top 12, without them there might not be a DCI still hanging in there.  I'm guessing not one of the top six have only mm who have only marched with them.

[Grandpa Joe]

1 minute ago, TOC said:

Thankfully, all the corps who took decades to make top 12 and other still active corps who still haven't made top 12, without them there might not be a DCI still hanging in there.  I'm guessing not one of the top six have only mm who have only marched with them.

This also brings up another conversation that I don't think people are ready for, ring chasers and destination corps.

[KVG_DC]

12 minutes ago, Grandpa Joe said:

This also brings up another conversation that I don't think people are ready for, ring chasers and destination corps.

Actually that’s an interesting distinction. I see “ring chasers” definitely prioritizing placement.  But “destination corps” are probably looking for a particular experience or staff to learn under or style of design/writing. 

Crown is a destination corps because brass players wanna at a Crown book and learn from Harloff. And the Jackson acquisition could well make them a destination corps for a certain school of percussionists too. As he was at BK, even though BK was further down the ladder at the time. 

Blue Stars is a destination corps in the guard world for those wanting the particulars of spinning a Shapiro book. As a corps they’re further down the ladder but the draw is still there. 
 

I don’t doubt asking any Crown marcher at the end of last season “do wish you would have placed higher?” Would get anything other than yeses. Duh!

But also, I doubt you’d get many saying they regretted marching Crown rather than Bloo or BAC or BD. Aside from a really blatant ring chaser 

[Grandpa Joe]

6 minutes ago, KVG_DC said:

Actually that’s an interesting distinction. I see “ring chasers” definitely prioritizing placement.  But “destination corps” are probably looking for a particular experience or staff to learn under or style of design/writing. 

Crown is a destination corps because brass players wanna at a Crown book and learn from Harloff. And the Jackson acquisition could well make them a destination corps for a certain school of percussionists too. As he was at BK, even though BK was further down the ladder at the time. 

Blue Stars is a destination corps in the guard world for those wanting the particulars of spinning a Shapiro book. As a corps they’re further down the ladder but the draw is still there. 
 

I don’t doubt asking any Crown marcher at the end of last season “do wish you would have placed higher?” Would get anything other than yeses. Duh!

But also, I doubt you’d get many saying they regretted marching Crown rather than Bloo or BAC or BD. Aside from a really blatant ring chaser 

I agree with you in this aspect, but again, this whole conversation derived from people saying that placement doesn't matter much, and all everyone has done is solidify my belief that it does matter, and it matters more than anyone wants to let on. There would be ramifications if Crown placed outside of the top 4, let alone the top 6 or top 10. They would no longer be much of a destination corps, auditions wouldn't draw in the numbers, staff changes would be out the wazoo, there would be talks that Harloff and company has lost their mojo, etc. The list goes on, so yes, placement does matter, and it matters more than anyone wants to acknowledge. 

As for placement during this time of the season, it does matter as well. Had they won in Little Rock, they would have had a later starting time in San Antonio making it easier for them to climb due to the slotting for regionals and Indy. As someone else mentioned in another thread, there's very little movement going on in the top 4 anymore. We don't see corps come out of nowhere on finals night and win anymore, or snag a spot or two away from the top 4. It just doesn't happen anymore. If you win coming out of the gate, you have to fight to stay there. If you're 3rd coming out of the gate, you have to claw your way to the top kicking and screaming. The old saying "It's easier to climb than it is to stay at the top" doesn't really apply here much anymore, because of the way this activity is structured. And if you want a prime example of how slotting can affect a placement, look no further than BOA 2015. 

Hebron won semis by .65 over Broken Arrow in 2nd.

Hebron went on first in finals, placed 3rd and lost their 1st place grip by 1.25 because of their time slot (Broken Arrow went on last.

Had they gone on in the latter half of the night, they would have won, and I say that as a big fan of the Broken Arrow band program. Hebron deserved to win based on their performance alone, and they ended up in 3rd place because of their time slot. This was changed (I believe the next year), placing the bottom 6 in the first half of the night and the top 6 in the second half. So whoever says that slotting isn't an issue, there's an example right there. Albeit in the BOA high school world, but it's still a perfect example none the less.

[MarchMello10]

1 hour ago, joe c said:

100%.  The brilliance of BD horn scoring is finishing on a high, then releasing / resolving with the same melody as it bridges to the next tune or phrase.  The listener is "helped along" the musical arc, maintaining unbroken interest. 

General Effect is an arc of emotion.  Anything abrupt moves the listener into the other side of their brain.  If they are made to "interpret," that's the opposite of emotion.  Shows fall off the cliff when that happens (see Cadets).  Colts, Troopers and Spirit of Atlanta use the dragging melody to keep interest level high.  That's why Spirit of Atlanta is my dark horse for the Saturday show in Indiana.  

Absolutely. An abrupt change can be used to great effect when it’s done intentionally as well, but I agree about SOA. As an alum, it’s great to see their continued understanding of this under this design team.

[skevinp]

19 minutes ago, Grandpa Joe said:

There would be ramifications if Crown placed outside of the top 4, let alone the top 6 or top 10. They would no longer be much of a destination corps, auditions wouldn't draw in the numbers, staff changes would be out the wazoo, 

They did place outside of the top 4, in 2014.  And those things didn’t happen.

[Cappybara]

1 hour ago, joe c said:

100%.  The brilliance of BD horn scoring is finishing on a high, then releasing / resolving with the same melody as it bridges to the next tune or phrase.  The listener is "helped along" the musical arc, maintaining unbroken interest. 

General Effect is an arc of emotion.  Anything abrupt moves the listener into the other side of their brain.  If they are made to "interpret," that's the opposite of emotion.  Shows fall off the cliff when that happens (see Cadets).  Colts, Troopers and Spirit of Atlanta use the dragging melody to keep interest level high.  That's why Spirit of Atlanta is my dark horse for the Saturday show in Indiana.  

This is precisely why I'm always so enamored by BD's shows. The writing keeps the energy through and through and there is always a resolution to a musical idea 

I don't necessarily think Crown's show is highly lacking in this, but I do think Crown used to be better about this pre 2017 than they are now. The writing has too many random technical insertions that feel out of place at times. I feel like this style of writing began in 2013 with Crown (when they all formed a squiggly line and did horn runs up and down the line) and has gotten progressively worse as time has gone on. 

[skevinp]

4 hours ago, saxfreq1128 said:

Placement matters, but on July 19, with 2-4 within a point of each other, I feel like the placement isn’t really the main takeaway. 2 should be looking over their shoulder and 4 should be revving their motors, not taking the placement to heart. 

For the most part, finals is the only placement that matters in people’s memory.

Does anyone consider Phantom 2008 a failure because they didn’t win every show?

[Chief Guns]

51 minutes ago, Grandpa Joe said:

I agree with you in this aspect, but again, this whole conversation derived from people saying that placement doesn't matter much, and all everyone has done is solidify my belief that it does matter, and it matters more than anyone wants to let on. There would be ramifications if Crown placed outside of the top 4, let alone the top 6 or top 10. They would no longer be much of a destination corps, auditions wouldn't draw in the numbers, staff changes would be out the wazoo, there would be talks that Harloff and company has lost their mojo, etc. The list goes on, so yes, placement does matter, and it matters more than anyone wants to acknowledge. 

As for placement during this time of the season, it does matter as well. Had they won in Little Rock, they would have had a later starting time in San Antonio making it easier for them to climb due to the slotting for regionals and Indy. As someone else mentioned in another thread, there's very little movement going on in the top 4 anymore. We don't see corps come out of nowhere on finals night and win anymore, or snag a spot or two away from the top 4. It just doesn't happen anymore. If you win coming out of the gate, you have to fight to stay there. If you're 3rd coming out of the gate, you have to claw your way to the top kicking and screaming. The old saying "It's easier to climb than it is to stay at the top" doesn't really apply here much anymore, because of the way this activity is structured. And if you want a prime example of how slotting can affect a placement, look no further than BOA 2015. 

Hebron won semis by .65 over Broken Arrow in 2nd.

Hebron went on first in finals, placed 3rd and lost their 1st place grip by 1.25 because of their time slot (Broken Arrow went on last.

Had they gone on in the latter half of the night, they would have won, and I say that as a big fan of the Broken Arrow band program. Hebron deserved to win based on their performance alone, and they ended up in 3rd place because of their time slot. This was changed (I believe the next year), placing the bottom 6 in the first half of the night and the top 6 in the second half. So whoever says that slotting isn't an issue, there's an example right there. Albeit in the BOA high school world, but it's still a perfect example none the less.

I posted this a few days ago in another thread when slotting came up.

From 2011-2019 at the TOC (Tournament of Champions) where each TOC show had a random draw, BD performed in the first three time slot's 16 times, and finished 1st 12 times, with 4 second place finishes. And I think they were 7-0 when they performed first.