JimF-LowBari Posted May 20, 2023 Share Posted May 20, 2023 37 minutes ago, scheherazadesghost said: And don't "libel/defamation" only actually apply in the case that accusers are lying? In the case they're telling truth, they could still get dragged to court to prove it sure, which obviously, most survivors of abuse in drum corps don't need. But to be clear, just cause they're accused of lying doesn't mean they are. (I'm always posting with the intent of sharing info with other survivors.) I'm just not so sure how helpful it is for the libel/defamation threat to keep cropping up without more nuanced dialogue about it. Without nuance, it continues to be a scare tactic that protects predators in the end. The truth remains their best ally. Ultimately, we're talking about glorified bando-predators and their enablers protecting themselves by threatening use of this legal mechanism. Never forget that (not directed at MCG specifically.) A person or group (thinking DCI) can go broke with court and lawyer costs even if they win the case. Knew someone who got sucked into a group sting operation. No idea if they were guilty, innocent or just stupid but they plea bargained part way through because of the expense. (State was going after 2 other people so this guy got probation for a few years.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted May 21, 2023 Share Posted May 21, 2023 22 hours ago, MGCpimpOtimp said: Right, and when someone commits and is CONVICTED of a crime, it's public record, and you can put it on a list. When they get fired for those actions and that person doesn't get charged/convicted, if the org that puts them on a list can't prove it in a court of law, they can be civilly liable for defamation/libel. Because they're saying, to other future employers, that you committed this crime. And if they can't prove it (and unfortunately most of those cases lack the evidence to be able to do that), then the person on the list can sue. even teachers that don't get convicted get blacklisted. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGCpimpOtimp Posted May 21, 2023 Share Posted May 21, 2023 They go through a process in front of the certification board and get their license revoked. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZTWright Posted May 21, 2023 Share Posted May 21, 2023 15 hours ago, MGCpimpOtimp said: They go through a process in front of the certification board and get their license revoked. Not in every case, sadly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
resipsaloquitur Posted May 22, 2023 Share Posted May 22, 2023 On 5/20/2023 at 6:30 AM, scheherazadesghost said: And don't "libel/defamation" only actually apply in the case that accusers are lying? In the case they're telling truth, they could still get dragged to court to prove it sure, which obviously, most survivors of abuse in drum corps don't need. But to be clear, just cause they're accused of lying doesn't mean they are. (I'm always posting with the intent of sharing info with other survivors.) I'm just not so sure how helpful it is for the libel/defamation threat to keep cropping up without more nuanced dialogue about it. Without nuance, it continues to be a scare tactic that protects predators in the end. The truth remains their best ally. Ultimately, we're talking about glorified bando-predators and their enablers protecting themselves by threatening use of this legal mechanism. Never forget that (not directed at MCG specifically.) Truth is an absolute defense 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted May 22, 2023 Share Posted May 22, 2023 On 5/19/2023 at 4:18 PM, IllianaLancerContra said: I wonder where (if) his daughter is teaching this year? Although I am somewhat hesitant to punish her for the sins of her father. IMO it is a terrible idea to punish a child for the sins of the parent. In this case IMO… It is up to the management of the places she is working to make sure the environment is safe and secure. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted May 22, 2023 Share Posted May 22, 2023 On 5/21/2023 at 6:19 AM, Jeff Ream said: even teachers that don't get convicted get blacklisted. Part of the problem in this thread is that a lot of this is state-specific in how these things are handled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scheherazadesghost Posted May 22, 2023 Share Posted May 22, 2023 31 minutes ago, MikeD said: IMO it is a terrible idea to punish a child for the sins of the parent. Okay yeah I'll go there. If a person has extensive, rigorous performance and pedagogical experience in the same profession as the child and consistently sees (how shall I put it as diplomatically as possible) gaps in the technique of their student-members that could generate or perpetuate injuries, it's not punishing them for Hop's sins. Especially if that person experienced drum corps injuries themselves and has researched drum corps-style injuries. In this case, what it is is calling out instructor performance. But that's not unique to this individual, it's a technical failing across drum corps. And it's probably why we see so many colorguard injuries season after season. This failing is plainly visible on the field in-performance just like any other instructional failing across captions. It's related to both the design of choreography and its instruction. 31 minutes ago, MikeD said: In this case IMO… It is up to the management of the places she is working to make sure the environment is safe and secure. This is where I land because few others on this forum in this industry seem to be trained to see the aforementioned gaps in movement technique, which are so glaring to me I have trouble watching sometimes. But instructors who perpetuate bad technique and observe subsequent, numerous related injuries keep getting rehired. This, even as incorrect movement technique abounds and directly contributes to the safety and security of colorguard members. 💯 Agreed on management's role here. In this case, there's a safety issue first that's of the utmost importance... but there's also a PR issue, both of which must be mitigated by management. Vanguard got blasted last year for the appearance or possibility of letting Hop close to the corps. I sent emails begging them to make a public statement about it. 28 minutes ago, MikeD said: Part of the problem in this thread is that a lot of this is state-specific in how these things are handled. ...and by extension, why advocacy is my chosen method of approach for this problem. If I can't influence leadership or instruction, which I obviously can't, all I can do is hopefully catch the eyes of a few people who can step in during worst case scenarios and protect the members when it matters most. All other entities seem to have washed their hands of responsibility and accountability. Predators flock to such industries for those reasons. 💯, if a member experiences a violation that calling 911 could mitigate, do it. Alas, there is an ocean of gray area between violations that are illegal and some of the abuse/neglect/harassment I get reports about. As drum corps exists now, there is no entity to ensure protection against violations that land in that gray area. There is also no entity to hold violators accountable. That leaves it in the hands of young, idealistic, and impressionable members to protect themselves. 😬 Still. But SafeSport, amirite? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted May 22, 2023 Share Posted May 22, 2023 6 minutes ago, scheherazadesghost said: Okay yeah I'll go there. If a person has extensive, rigorous performance and pedagogical experience in the same profession as the child and consistently sees (how shall I put it as diplomatically as possible) gaps in the technique of their student-members that could generate or perpetuate injuries, it's not punishing them for Hop's sins. Especially if that person experienced drum corps injuries themselves and has researched drum corps-style injuries. In this case, what it is is calling out instructor performance. There have been comments that she should not be hired because of her father. That is what my comment was aimed at. Whether or not her technical skills are up to snuff I leave to others, as I am far from capable of knowing that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scheherazadesghost Posted May 22, 2023 Share Posted May 22, 2023 1 minute ago, MikeD said: There have been comments that she should not be hired because of her father. That is what my comment was aimed at. Whether or not her technical skills are up to snuff I leave to others, as I am far from capable of knowing that. 💯 I know the ones of which you speak and I know my comment probably read like I was directing it at you. Apologies, I wasn't. It was directed at the crowd who can't distinguish the two kinds of critique and jump to defend her no matter what. Have been thinking of ranking corps by the movement techniques displayed by their colorguards this season for this very purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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