A history of DCI judging and scoring, and the movement away from music emphasis

[BigW]

16 hours ago, cixelsyd said:

It is mind-boggling.

Drum corps has had a way of bucking systemic influences, and steering a different creative course.  For many years (i.e. prior to DCI), it labored under scoring systems which gave very little credit for content, focusing almost exclusively on identifying and deducting for errors.  Yet many of the leading corps from that era were best known for introducing increasingly difficult things into the idiom, and pulling the whole activity in that direction against scoresheet logic.  This was true in brass, percussion and visual. 

Maybe the best example of that was the evolution of colorguard.  The original "colorguard" was literally an American flag bearer "guarded" by a couple of accompanying weapon bearers.  It defies all logic how that evolved with the ideas of adding hordes of auxiliary performers in the late 1960s, having them spin and toss equipment at risk of penalties in the 1970s, then develop dance into a fundamental additional skill in the 1980s - all when there was no caption in the scoring system allocated to assess and credit all these developments, a change that was still two more decades off in the future.

In similar fashion, when I look at the scoring shift 1994-2000, I do not see or hear the changes one would logically expect in response.  Those changes came distinctly later - changes like the concepts of "intellectual" and "aesthetic" effect; making thematic shows mandatory; the fetishes for props and climbing; the shift away from musical focus and progression toward the patchwork design that infests current musical programming, and the electronic crutch on which it relies so heavily; and a parallel shift away from drill focus and progression toward the patchwork design that infests current visual programming, and the pose-or-dance sets on which it relies so heavily.

Touching on the comments here, I'm reminded of other thoughts from people that the musical design aspect has been accused of taking the final number out of the hands of the performers and into the hands of the design team. Everyone's insanely clean now, subatomic particles need to be split to separate in raw performance. It's more in the hands of content that cause separation between DCI competitors. In regard to this, there's been other threads and thoughtful comments touching on some aspects in BoA in particular regarding the degree of meshing of electronics into the ensemble sound so well no one's sure who's doing what at times and with what weight.

 

 I can say that since the OP started going back in time, a lot more of the difficulty/analysis numbers are generated through how challenging the book is to play while moving/field placement/use of body while playing the brass instruments rather than the raw musical content. This is something I've become painfully aware of over say, the past 5 to 10 years in the activity in general. This is even more prevalent at say, the base HS level (I'm not talking about the elite HS units out there), especially since COVID hit.

 

Another aspect to touch on his BITD, visual design was predicated on what the musical book was. The designers were given the music and then they wrote in reaction to that. Over the past two decades, many teams will have a drill sequence written out and ask the music design team to create something to fit that instead. Which, might explain some of the comments about patchwork designs occurring.

 

Would I like to see more coherent melodic thread in a lot of what I'm hearing? More resolved musical phrases and completed thoughts? Yeah. I was trained in Music School that music is a language, phrases are thoughts and sentences. And when. You break. Them up abruptly. and Change subjects without logical flow. It's not. 

 

A good.

 

Thing.

[IllianaLancerContra]

17 hours ago, Triple Forte said:

That’s why I love the Marine Drum and  bugle corps of the most. They are both highly technical and musical. 

Agreed.   But I don’t think we’ll see them do the ‘squat’, the ‘pelvic thrust’, the ‘side-squat’, the ‘ballerina’ hand posing, etc   

Edited March 17 by IllianaLancerContra

[Triple Forte]

2 hours ago, IllianaLancerContra said:

Agreed.   But I don’t think we’ll see them do the ‘squat’, the ‘pelvic thrust’, the ‘side-squat’, the ‘ballerina’ hand posing, etc   

😄.  Well you never know .  They do have an electric synth and mic brass soloists  ha! 

[Terri Schehr]

2 hours ago, IllianaLancerContra said:

Agreed.   But I don’t think we’ll see them do the ‘squat’, the ‘pelvic thrust’, the ‘side-squat’, the ‘ballerina’ hand posing, etc   

So there’s still hope for jazz hands? 

[TheOneWhoKnows]

On 3/15/2024 at 12:27 PM, Lance said:

This is why I love Crown and Bloo in particular.  I can almost always count on a musical product that's just as important to them as visual.  It's simply not the case for the majority of corps anymore, and I don't blame them with the scoring being so heavily skewed towards visual.  

The fact that people with zero musical background are scoring music is yet another reason why scores are really a joke in the activity.  It's always been kind of a joke, though, lol.  

 

On 3/16/2024 at 12:38 AM, Jeff Ream said:

effect continues to be scheduled with one judge with a music background and one with a visual background...a few people have both. at the major regionals and finals week, that assignment is doubled. so in essence i have yet to see an entire effect panel of just two people with a visual emphasis background.

 

MA is far less tick focused as you discuss. it's more of an overall total musical package sheet. yes there can be challenges with the judge having a background in brass or percussion background, and not being knowledgeable in both, but DCI has been trying to address that with several new recruits and better assignment of who works that sheet. 

The whole idea that “people with only one background are scoring one or the other” is really not true. 
 

At the DCI level, the GE judges are people who are highly esteemed in the activity and who have deep experience in pageantry, arts, and successful design. 
 

Each panel does get assigned judges with music leaning backgrounds and judges with visual leaning backgrounds. But in most cases, they have both. And in even more cases those with visual leaning backgrounds started out in music and took a path in life to the visual side. So there is understanding there. 
 

And to push back even more, take a look at John Howell who was on the GE panel at championships last year. He has a majority visual background. But he places emphasis on the music when it comes to GE judging. He understands that the musical component is the base for the activity all together. Even though he’s a colorguard guy. (I can say this with confidence because he and I have had conversations about this). But who did he have first overall in GE? Crown. Which if you have any understanding of music, was the right decision. 

Edited March 17 by TheOneWhoKnows

[Lance]

3 hours ago, TheOneWhoKnows said:

 

The whole idea that “people with only one background are scoring one or the other” is really not true. 
 

no, it's objective truth. 

meet me here for the first regional and we'll look up cv's for judges scoring music captions. you're 100% wrong. 

whether or not you're okay with it is opinion.  and i respect the opinions of people who are okay with it.  but don't say things that aren't true, especially if you try defending them with post hoc nonsense.  it's just band, but don't talk about things you don't understand. 

Edited March 17 by Lance

[TheOneWhoKnows]

1 hour ago, Lance said:

no, it's objective truth. 

meet me here for the first regional and we'll look up cv's for judges scoring music captions. you're 100% wrong. 

whether or not you're okay with it is opinion.  and i respect the opinions of people who are okay with it.  but don't say things that aren't true, especially if you try defending them with post hoc nonsense.  it's just band, but don't talk about things you don't understand. 

Okay are we changing the goal post? You started out by complaining about GE, but now it’s all music captions? And lord knows you are absolutely wrong if you think ALL music captions are being judged by people who don’t know #### about music. 
 

Don't come for me and say I “don’t understand”. I’m in the middle of it. I am an adjudicator who works with many of those who judge DCI. I know their backgrounds and what they bring to the table.

[Sideways]

On 3/15/2024 at 4:57 PM, BG984 said:

In 2015,  The  Cadets became the only corps to win brass and percussion at the DCI Championship prelims, and not only not win the show, but not finish in the top 3.  There have been years where the overall music winner did not win the title, but nowadays, you can win music and finish 4th.  Conversely, you can be 4th in music (and I won't be surprised if someday soon, 5th) but win the title.  Spreads given in GE/Visual/Guard will always prevail over scant edges given in music.  We have color guard judges judging overall "effect" who wouldn't know the difference between two musical products if it bit them.  Crown has had years where they won brass.....by a tenth........over groups that frankly could not shine their shoes in that caption.  Not to say others weren't decent in brass, but the clear superiority in every aspect of brass performance was not acknowledged score-wise.   I remember a day when people would wait with excitement at a regional (Allentown, for example) for the scores to be announced.  Nowadays, most are in their cars on their way before they are even announced, not just because of the quick availability of the internet, but because competitive excitement is gone.  All said, though....the only way there will be change is if it is proposed and approved by the drum corps themselves, and there has not been a stronger influence there than the visual community, an example being last year when some proposals that would have created more refined emphasis on music were soundly defeated.

Cadets only won brass in ‘15.  BD won drums.  And they finished 4th because of He who shall not be named insisting on the change to black and Neon.  Absolutely killed visual effect from up top.  
 

There were also major staging issues with those movable stages.  Couple extended segments of the show they were staged front and center with absolutely nothing going on with them…talk about a focus killer.  

Edited March 17 by Sideways
More info

[Jeff Ream]

On 3/16/2024 at 4:36 AM, BG984 said:

My references were only referring to panels at Championships, and thus currently 4 effect judges, all using the same sheet, regardless of background.  So, indeed there are visual/guard judges who are making decisions involving the effectiveness of not only the visual program, but the musical program........yes, I do question their abilities to do so.......                             No "tick" system referred to (though I marched, taught, and wrote when that was still around!!)   I apologize that I was referring not to MA, but actually Ensemble....specifically the change in 1994, when Percussion Ensemble and Brass Ensemble were dropped for "Music Ensemble".   For many years, if a brass judge was picked, you still pretty much got a "brass ensemble tape", and maybe the entire perc. commenting was "percussion too loud here".......If a percussion guy was judging, he might talk about timing between brass/percussion, or musical cohesion, but you wouldn't hear him talk about the intonation of the brass ensemble..........there were very few guys totally knowledgeable with both brass and percussion.....that remains a problem today.......I actually judged the caption for many years..........interestingly, DCI dropped the word "ensemble" for "analysis" in 2012, but "ensemble" remained on the DCA sheets through last year......While I am at it, I can officially comment on things now that I have officially retired from judging forever, largely due to health......so I am no longer sworn to silence.   The main part of my article was that at DCI in 6 short years, music went from a 30% emphasis edge in the scoring to ZERO.  I can also tell you with certainty that a handful of visual gurus were largely responsible for pushing things through, and I doubt that the music edge will ever return...........in the last two years, a rule proposal, by a hall of famer, was presented to return to brass ensemble and percussion ensemble (with the ability of each judge to consider how they work together musically) for more accurate judging, and also to return to music effect/visual effect (which DCA still had through last year) for the same reason..........his proposals were solidly rejected.  Interestingly, the former DCA corps have adopted DCI's sheets/scoring system.....I am just hoping for a good survival for them...concerned about how many fans will attend all-age championships, plus the additional costs for the corps..........I was there 27 years..........I wish them the best..............

even on old effect sheets, visual and audio blended together. its called audio visual coordination. there's old effect tapes online where music guys discuss visual on effect.

yes over time, some changes were made that seemed to lessen the emphasis of brass and percussion. slowly that trend started to reverse itself when the skeleton of the current system now in place was first adapted and also added guard to be an actual sheet that counted. it boggles me that for 28 years, it wasn't part of the total score.

and yes as i said, on the various music ensemble and MA sheets, there were definite issues based on the judges background. however with more and more emphsis on folks with music degrees on that sheet, and making the sheet more of an overall package sheet, it has gotten better. 

and yes visual has gained a lot more influence. IMO, scoring should always have been 50/50. my beef is less with the split and more on the commentary. on a music sheet, if you don't refence physical and environmental demands, you're crucified. however rarely if every do you hear musical demands mentioned on the visual side. that to me is the biggest flaw in the system.

 

as for DCA sheets...no offense, it was basically the same sheet, just a idfferent header and that goofy ### "communication" sheet. that was just GE speak added on top of the other GE sheet. DCA's system had been flawed since that was added and field visual removed. as far as cost fr those corps.....at championships effect was doubled. you had the three music sheets and 2 visual sheet. only cost added is an extra visual person.that won't be a deal breaker, especially as you see the lineups at the shows....they'll bring in more fans.

[Jeff Ream]

On 3/16/2024 at 7:05 AM, Terri Schehr said:

I’m out of the loop about judging but you’re saying that people with no music cred are judging music? Yikes. 😳 

they aren't. anyone on amusic sheet has a music background, and effect is always a person with a visual background and a music background, and thats doubled for the major shows