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  1. If he is wrong about drum corps needing woodwinds, could he be wrong about drum corps needing electronics?
    7 points
  2. You are quite emphatic. I'll try to answer your questions: 1. Instead of having to invent a comparable sound (say, helicopters) via, say, bass drum heads (listen to SCV 1991) you can now do it with a sound patch. Yes, it's simpler and easier now. But it's not as innovative. You don't have to think nearly as much to set the soundscape of your show now that push-button technology is in the mix. Is this a bad thing? To me, yes. To you, no. But you asked me how it's a crutch, and that's how it's a crutch. (I'll get to the corollary argument that the synth is actually a creative force/tool in a moment.) 2. In your second rebuttal, you took issue with my expression of what made drum corps unique. I was directly responding to what someone else said about what made drum corps unique - IN THE CONTEXT OF MARCHING BAND ELECTRONICA which had been available and used in band shows but not adopted by drum corps for many years. Please understand the context. 3. Your next question was how has the unique quality of drum corps has stopped since the use of synths. See my paragraph #1. Synths have made us less unique - i.e. less separated from marching band. 4. Boundless possibilities: ahhhhh the old standby argument of many who have come before you - not just on DCP, either. It's all creativity!!! Yes. And if drum corps wasn't competition-based entertainment (or entertainment-based competition) with an educational component in which a generally "level playing field" is desired, we could have mimes with toy cymbals, cheerleading squads and chocolate covered teddy bears all out on the field being "drum corps." All with synthesized background versions of Maleguena and Over the Rainbow (for us old farts). My completely ridiculous assertion above is really about this: I don't like that a horn line can be "enhanced" by electronically produced power chords - or any other electronic sound - and not have it be openly judged for bad or good. Heck, I wonder if any of those hornlines might have had some holes in their sound or bad releases during those chords that could have cost them a few tenths on the sheets and created more movement in placements. We'll never know, thanks to this particular part of "boundless possibilities." In other words, it's not all good, and it would be nice if a corps or three would make all musical sounds only via acoustic instruments (amplified pit ok) and have zero synthesized sounds just to see if they can compete with the others. I bet they could, and it would be FANTASTIC. In other words, my beef is with designers who use electronics because everyone else is doing it because they are afraid to fall behind. Generally I don't get all worked up about posts like this, but I guess you pushed a button. I'm so funny. p.s. Please know that your last phrase about me not appreciating creativity could have been taken as a little backhanded attempt at calling me a dinosaur. Or, you could have just meant that the current trends are such that I do not like them. I will say this: not liking them in drum corps doesn't mean I don't appreciate them in other contexts. I know I'm fighting an uphill battle about synths because the designers probably don't really care what I think, so it's not like I'm ignorant of that. But I would... appreciate... it if you wouldn't assume anything about what I, well, appreciate.
    2 points
  3. What did George actually say; I mean what was his actual quote and the context. My mind might be getting fuzzy, but I don't remember when this happened. And if he did state that legacy fans were not the target audience, could it be because to grow an activity or organization typically targets those who are not yet on board? I typically don't get targeted mailings to join an organization of which I'm already a member. Fans who have bought tickets before already get the mailings from DCI and they know about DCI.org. Potential fans are more likely to not know so much about DCI and consequently are targeted to help grow the organization and the activity. Granted, there's a feeling among a certain percentage of fans that feel disenfranchised. How might one suggest they are reached to know that they are vitally important to DCI's viability? Can the minds of some who feel disenfranchised be changed by targeted output from DCI? In short, how do we turn a negative into a positive and keep everyone—legacy and new fans—happy?
    2 points
  4. A common theme in the woodwinds discussion is that by having the instrumentation DCI corps currently do, the organization is excluding hundreds of people who would otherwise participate. But DCI excludes a substantially larger chunk of willing marchers as well, and no one ever seems to complain about it: young adults in the 22-26 age range. In an age where life expectancy is almost 10 years greater than it was during DCI's inception, and with people entering the workforce later and later, does it really make sense to keep the age cap at 21? Why is 21 the magic number to be considered a "youth activity"? What would be the advantages and disadvantages of opening up this previously excluded demographic for eligibility in DCI?
    1 point
  5. A person for whom volume control requires no real effort. Did any corps use synthesizers in 2008? Were they even allowed that year? (I just went through Jolesch's percussion photos for the 2008 and 2009 Blue Devils, likely to lead the way in "innovation". I didn't see a synth in the 2008 photos --my favorite of the past four years' BD shows, despite some overamplification in the pit-- but it does appear in the 2009 photos.) If not, I'm not sure your point stands. I'm going to try another sports analogy (one I mentioned in passing earlier). Think of drum corps as being like the high jump. The goal of the high jump is to loft oneself over the bar -- under one's one strength. The goal of drum corps is (or ought to be, in my opinion) to create a big beautiful sound -- under one's own strength. Adding electronics to drum corps is like adding a trampoline to the high jump. Sure it makes it easier, but it takes away the challenge. Or try this: once hologram technology is sufficiently developed, the guard will be able to appear to be tossing hundreds with their rifles. What's the difference between that and electronic music, in which the corps can create any sound at all, as loud as they want, with very little effort?
    1 point
  6. But seriously. If you want to know who is on staff there, just look at all the years previous. They have incredible staff loyalty and retention. Not to mention talent. They have had, for the most part the same staff for a long time now. They all stick around at BD while all the other corps are constantly trying to reinvent the wheel and find newer and better staffs so they can beat the Blue Devils. The staff at the Blue Devils will be largely the same this year. They will continue designing. And teaching. And winning.
    1 point
  7. Glad to see I'm not the only apartment Nerf war survivor on here!
    1 point
  8. Yes. Yes it is. My college roommate, myself, and a couple of our friends have a stash of Nerf guns, and he has this one. We have all-out Nerf wars in out apartments.
    1 point
  9. What? I think you've read that they're looking for more screamers as Madison is having trouble filling their hornline. I'm not sure true those two ideas are the same.
    1 point
  10. Yea Cop thats what alot of people are thinking, and with the Blue reference I dont think the Blue Stars are the only Blue they are looking to fly buy with the "Dream Team" staff... last year was just the start of so many great things to come.
    1 point
  11. Meh, I appreciate your opinion but I disagree. DCI wants to make fans out of attendees, right? Well, let an attendee hear helicopters and see bass drum heads, or hear military footfalls and see woodblocks, and it will always evoke a "Wow!" factor. You may say the average attendee doesn't care how the sound is created, but that's only because he hears those sound effects every time he takes his girlfriend to the movies to watch Terminator 21, or the like. It's not new coming from a synth patch, so it evokes no "Wow!" factor at all. But the guard under the shields, the corps under the Phantom silk, the magician making the girl disappear, the helicopter flying overhead...those were real, visceral BECAUSE they were analog. Those visual and audible moments, combined with the analog music of such power, creates the moments that turn attendees into fans. Those things did it for most of us on this thread (the dinos) and the ironic thing is that those analog moments are more rare and impressive in today's electronic world. Why not holographic ballet dancers then?
    1 point
  12. Good God! Is that a Nerf gun? Oh, I hope my son doesn't see this. (Hilarious post)
    1 point
  13. Oh, now I'm REALLY in love with you! This is a beautifully crafted post that I bet many "dinos" relate to perfectly (count me as one!). Bravo.
    1 point
  14. 1. if they are used to double ANY, they are being used wrong. I don't wanna hear synth...I wanna hear little Cindy play her trumpet...or baritone...or tuba...or xylophone. 2. ehhh...to me, SCV doing the helicopter sound was infinitely more impressive than pressing a button. Phantom making the marching troops sound in '08 was much better than a synth could have done it... 3. Sure, when drum corps were started up, there were lots of other performance groups that were acoustic..they didn't have a whole lot of choice. How many of those other performance groups were designed for outdoor performance on a football field? marching band, and drum corps. Drum corps sounded different than marching band. Marching bands had woodwinds, and most probably used Bb horn instrumentation. (that's just a guess...I dunno what a 50's marching band's horn key was) Marching band was for the kid in school that either wanted to play an instrument, or was forced to play an instrument my their parents. For many, and still to this day, marching band is just a social club. There are far more social club marching bands in the U.S. than there are BOA marching bands. Drum corps was for the kid off the street that didn't know anything about music, and the marching band person that wanted more/better. That started changing in the 70's. It started to become more about the marching band person that wanted to be in the elite...wanted to be in a drum corps. Drum corps did things marching bands couldn't dream of. The incredible sounds of a G line wailing at stadium filled fans was awesome. The sounds of a woodwind filled marching band? not so much... Drum corps was the pied piper...marching band was the mice. And then marching band started to get more organized...boa, ussba, etc...and they said bands could use electric. (i'm heaping all the stuff..amps, mic's, synths, into electric) Marching bands all over the country are using electric. They didn't have the pure brass sound that was loud enough, or the time to come up with creative ways to make certain noises, or they flat out used them to cover up weak sections. Now, drum corps are doing the same thing. Marching band is the pied piper...drum corps is the mice. A lot of people...a LOT...that like drum corps don't like marching band. I wouldn't pay a dollar to go see Tarpon Springs if they were playing in my neighbors yard. Drum corps used to the leader...now it's not..because they have sold out their uniqueness...acoustic brass and drums. 4. If I want a bridge made out of spaghetti and meatballs, I have that option..I can go watch a BOA show. 5. examples of easy button = synthesizers doubling brass parts. use of bass and electric guitar, instead of transcribing the music to a brass part. Synth patch instead of a creative acoustic solution. mic'ing brass soloists... as far as performances getting harder...sure, the marching is...and that in turn makes playing harder, but brass books decades ago were harder to play than today's brass books. Drum corps are sacrificing musicality for physicality. I wouldn't pay to watch BD's drill with no music, but I would pay money to hear Crown's music with no drill. 6. the higher the tempo, the less notes you can push through a horn. there's a lot more "jazz run 10 yards and play a whole note" than there used to be. There's a lot more "bazillion notes in 2 measures followed by a chord stinger" than their used to be. Music is being designed to follow drill design, when it used to be the drill was designed to follow the music. the designing is the issue that most have that are of the older school. designers are designing shows to please the judges, not the audience. That much is apparent from BD's last 2 offerings. George Hopkins has flat out said he could care less what the audience wants. you said "Designers decide whats important for them in a show, and they decide how much to cater to a progressive audience or a traditional audience while still winning first place." the way shows are judged now, you CAN'T win first place and cater to the audience, except for one exception...Phantom '08, and to be honest, BD was a lot cleaner in '08. Designers are designing there shows aiming at the judges first, and then toss the crowd a bone if we can. the audience is who pays the bills, and there are still a lot more old schoolers out there then there are the new progressives. designers should be aiming at the check writer, and not the judges...continuing a judging formula that consistently goes against the wishes of the cash cow is not a way to keep the activity alive.
    1 point
  15. Yes, the few times it actually works is like winning the lotto.
    1 point
  16. I wish I could hit the + sign about a dozen times for this post.
    1 point
  17. All outstanding comments and observations on one of the more interesting facts of life: if you do something over and over again, eventually you arrive at 'been there/done that'. This aspect of human nature (for that's what we're up against...) is what gives us the amazing rush regarding things we find new and exciting...and then disappoints us when we're older, or been around the block a few times. I really can't say whether my enjoyment of some corps is due to what they're doing, or that they simply remind me of decades ago when I pretty much adored all the top 12 corps -
    1 point
  18. You know Bone, the real question here is "will other capable corps step out with their own form of the new BD model of Cirque-type design/production and music that is anything but traditional"? I say "capable" because, let's face it, there's really only 3 or 4 corps that are of the caliber (this year) to challenge BD. Madison and PR will continue to build this year and SCV (only real dark horse) is posturing to move up, but CC, Cadets, Cavies and Bloo have the chops (presently) to challenge. BUT......(IMO) anyone who goes normal staight ahead (Ream/Brasso lovin' it) drum corps this year, won't challenge. If they go traditional...the dinos will certainly need Depends to wipe away their tears of remembrance and continue to wonder and blather on as to why the judges still don't get it. Now, if everyone goes traditional this year (including BD...fat chance) it's a crap-shoot based strictly on field chops....which means...forget it...3-peat (probably unscathed)! So, which design team can match BD at their own game? I say Cavies & CC. If that happens, Katie bar the door...this is going to be fun one!!!! Also, on the other side of the Bay, SCV needs another year or two but WILL embrace the BD model and WILL prevail eventually (Fiedler is building his team). Bloo will hover near the top, but will not win if they stay hyper-traditional (which will be the same for Madison at their level). In short.....sorry dinos, me thinks our design warriors out there don't need another example this year as to why "outside the box" gets you "inside box 5".
    1 point
  19. 1. they are used to double brass parts...they are used to make "sounds" that corps would otherwise have to use their imagination to create. 2. It was available. It was impractical. Drum corps was designed with acoustic instruments that didn't need amplification, so there was no need for it...and yes, that made drum corps unique. 3. The more constraints you have to produce, the more creative you have to be. Anyone can build a bridge with no material constraints, but you have to be creative to make a viable bridge with just popsicle sticks and bubble gum. Another thing is when you have 10 media to work with, instead of 50, it's easier to balance...easier to polish, and isn't as "busy". When you have boundless possibilities, it's MUCH easier to do something different, but easier doesn't = better. In the last decade we've added more "easy buttons" than Staples. For a niche performance based entertainment media, easy button = bad. as stolen from Jimmy Dugan..."It's supposed to be hard. If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard... is what makes it great."
    1 point
  20. Interesting list. Most rivalries in DCA are friendly these days, if they even really exist at all. In my experience at Bush it kind of depended on the year. In 2002, there was some serious back and forth between us and Cabs because we were flip flopping placements all year...but honestly, I don't think we ever really viewed anyone in DCA as a rival. At least not in my years there. Certainly not the Corpsvets...we never really saw each other enough, but maybe it was seen as a rivalry on their end. I don't know. I was just an arm flapper. :) It's so "family-riffic" these days and people are really sensitive, so any rivalries or trash talking is mostly kept behind the scenes and a nice, happy, "won't you be my neighbor" face put on in public. Part me thinks that's cool. The competitive part of me thinks that everyone who isn't wearing the same uniform as me is my rival.
    1 point
  21. Sure....but when "marching band does it" is used as justification for a change, don't be surprised if that doesn't satisfy everyone's concerns. Wow....you really don't get it at all, do you? If no one cared how the sounds are produced, no one would ever have trekked out to football fields in mid-summer to hear a bunch of horns and drums try to make music while moving around. If anything, it ought to have been more of a fascination decades ago, when instrumentation was more limited. Oh, that's right - crowds were larger back then. 1. You don't think that the percussion innovators that produced the "helicopters" of '91 SCV, or the "skipping record" of '83 VK, could replicate a "bite" sound? 2. I'll bet the Bluecoats had a good enough trumpet player that could have doubled the bari soloist in his/her own octave. 3. While acoustic drum corps hasn't duplicated all the sounds of an electric guitar, it sure is fun to hear talented brass players adapt guitar music to their own instruments(including Teal Sound's own soloists and tuba section). 4. Go listen to 2003 Carolina Crown....plenty of glass sounds in that show. More reliable? You can't get this stuff to work in bad weather, and often won't even try due to safety concerns. Even in nice conditions, how reliable were the Bluecoats' vocal parts in 2008? Amplification failures are too numerous to list here. No argument from me there. Since there are 100 times as many marching bands now, they're bound to come up with some ideas "first". I'm sure there are....and I know they use those talents for far better things than the "apple bite" effect (which is basically "push a button"). I also know that there are some pretty impressive field musicians getting drowned out at times because the impressive musician at the synthesizer has no control over what the sound board operator is doing. Amplification's issues are often no fault of the performers, and not within the performers' ability to fix.
    1 point
  22. I wholeheartedly reject the notion that the addition of woodwinds will expand participation. For every sax player on the field there is one less brass player. It does nothing to increase participation on any level, unelss you once again increase the max corps size to include the woodwinds so no brass players are displaced. Drum corps is not now or has it ever been closed off to woodwind players. I played tenor and bari sax all through school, played bass and snare drum in drum corps. If you're a woodwind player and you want to march drum corps then learn another instrument, you'll be better off for it.
    1 point
  23. wow. nitpicky aren't we? The baby boomers are dying. WGN listeners from the 70s already dead for the most part. What's the average age of a local DCI show audience? How about DCA? This would be the demographic analysis which would conclude the drum corps audience is aging and more closely nearing the earth nap. There is recognition of this in some quarters and an attempt to make the drum corps more like "super marching band."
    1 point
  24. In terms of show concept, visual design and musical excellence, your first point is true. In terms of electronics, bands have been in that realm far, far longer than drum corps. In this regard, drum corps is moving toward being marching band. I think this is why people get on the A&E is "so marching band" kick. And I'm one of them. The point has been argued to death, but once again I'll iterate my own opinion: when designers can create a musical image for me through acoustic means, I'm FLOORED. When they do it via the push of a button and a mic, I'm not. I think it would be great if the judging criteria would give greater weight to corps who do more with less. In other words, when a designer makes a helicopter sound with free standing bass drum heads, that's innovation and creativity. When a designer does it with a sound patch, it's not. If a couple of years ago Blue Knights had made windy/cold sounds via an acoustic device/effect, that would have been a design plus. And had they been attempting that show before synths, their designers would have been forced to come up with a way to do it. That's the kind of innovation that drives me and many, many other drum corps fans to a happier place. Troopers made a train-entering-the-station sound with wire brushes and timpani with the help of amplification. That worked for me. Amped pit has been useful. Synths have been a design crutch. So, what made drum corps unique for so long was the avoidance of electronic sounds via synths (and any other electronic instrument). We should stop denying that part of it. Remove the synths and you force design toward the creative thinking that drove drum corps GE to new heights for years and years. That's what I would love to see happen.
    1 point
  25. My point is no one has even been in the same ballpark as BD, especially SCV, and I don't see them being the upsetting corps.
    1 point
  26. Uh...no. That's not at all what he said in the article. I quote: "Traditionalists fear Hopkins will pierce the last remaining veil that separates DCI's brass-based sound from their high school and college marching band brethren: Allowing clarinets, saxophones and other woodwind instruments onto the field." Nowhere in the article did George say adding woodwinds was "his way," nor did he state that woodwinds were coming. This is the sort of thing where if repeated enough, people start to believe it. (It's on the Internet, so it must be true.) All of us in the DCP community can help keep the facts from being overshadowed by the conjectures.
    1 point
  27. That's because somewhere along the line you were taught that art had to be boring.
    1 point
  28. I know a lot of kids who were in the line last year who were not from UNT. Rennick draws talent from everywhere.
    1 point
  29. I said to myself for a week..."Tom, you are not going to look at that thread. Don't open it." Today I caved and I am stupider for having done so. ###### your eyes. Too late.
    1 point
  30. Most of the Phantom vets who went to SCV are/were UNT students of Rennick's first. So they are definitely loyal to him and no surprise that they followed him to SCV. And the non-UNT PR vets would logically follow Paul and their friends as well in hopes of repeating. Lets be realistic, you're coming off a year where your line just won high drums, now the staff and most of the vets are going to another corps. Are you going to be the one that stays behind for a "rebuilding" year?? BTW, vets following staff to another corps is nothing new. I remember back when Tom Float moved from Spirit to Blue Devils in the early 80's, many of that great Spirit line went west with him. And that was before it was common to march for a corps far away from home.
    1 point
  31. I agree ;-) from a 78 program that I kept...
    1 point
  32. whoever scores higher than BD at the same show does it
    1 point
  33. I think Cavaliers will end the streak.... in 2012.
    1 point
  34. Good grief I agree. Phantom Regiment Classic are black and white. Red capes? achoo! excuse me, allergies ;-)
    1 point
  35. Cough *Phantom Regiment Classic* cough
    1 point
  36. In many cases a vet would have an advantage, but I believe it is futile to allow a vet to keep a spot just because they are a vet. It's up to each vet to prove they can take advantage of their status within the organization. A vet showing up is not enough. If you have game, then being a vet should secure a spot for you. But, just because you earned a spot a year ago...if you don't keep improving, someone may just show up and move you down a spot or two this year. Now, how often does this happen? I would argue, very seldom, but when it does, it's almost always in the battery and most particularly in the snare line. Why? Well, it's a combination of factors, but most of which revolve around instructors and a simple case of numbers. I would wager if BD was allowed to have two snare lines in competition, their second line would finish about 5th overall. Just a guess, but the best players tend to show up their first then get weeded out to other top corps. SVC's former players will most certainly find homes if not with SCV. Some may make BDs line this year...if not, look for them out east or in the Midwest somewhere. Where a corps is located doesn't really matter near as much as it used to. What matters is who you get to perform with and for. Also, for many, who can give you the best deal money wise. In essence, one uniform fits about as well as any other.
    1 point
  37. Boston 2000. IMHO, best show of the decade
    1 point
  38. I think what the OP is trying to say is why did corps stick purely with mellophones when there is now an option to add other unique brass voices that simply were not possible in G due to manufacturing restraints. If you look at it now, horn lines can be so much richer sounding in the middle voices by simply adding horns (French Horns that is) and flugel horns. But instead, corps continue to stick with the traditional sops, mellos, baris (an occasionally euphs) and contras... I say bring back the additional alto voices. Go listen to 80's horn lines... specifically the likes of Blue Devils and Freelancers, and listen to how much more rounded the alto voices are. There's really no comparison.
    1 point
  39. Most corps were using all mellophones in their alto voices by then, correct?
    1 point
  40. Well, amps and synths don't have to be individually fit to specific body compositions. Tis the season to be jolly.
    1 point
  41. why? really it's because of schedule and finances. DCI should do what they do, and let DCA do what they do. There's enough in both to go around
    1 point
  42. honestly...because it's not in DCI's Charter
    1 point
  43. I'm only 41. being in the financial world, I can tell you most people in my generation are usually in the middle of the food chain, not the ones with power and decision making abilities.
    1 point
  44. well, we know at least one that proposed a change
    1 point
  45. as well as kids that can't afford or do not want to march DCI
    1 point
  46. Who said all of the corps had to do a full tour? In fact, whenever I would read press coverage of Jersey Surf or similar corps they would always profile at least one person who chose the corps in order to also have a job over the summer.
    1 point
  47. This can (and does) happen in DCA. What's the problem?
    1 point
  48. well....if DCI were to go all age, the schedule would have to tour. you don't make a good career ( or resume) playing drum corps full time at 30. I say we leave it where it is. Part of DCI's charter is that it is a youth activity. Unless you're 70, I don't see 30 year olds getting called kids.
    1 point
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