Leaderboard

Sarcasm alert! No....it was 11 instances in 43 years. That's even worse! Yep. Just those 11 moments, nothing else. Uh-huh. There was nothing else in the 20,000 corps shows through the years that interested me in the least. /sarcasm You know, if you had read the part of my post where it says "I can't possibly list all the examples", that would have saved some bandwidth here.

Conversely, A&E has the potential to take away from shows in a negative fashion, which is more detrimental than beneficial. So we get one show that A&E adds to and 10 that A&E takes away from. Is it worth it under this scenario? No.

No, there are no "rights" to speak of as you have put them here. You do what is asked of you by your design and education team in order to further the accomplishments of the whole. If a solo works, it works. If it doesn't, you follow the instructions of your design and education team (and give personal input into solutions if required) to either change it or hose it. You don't go to them and say "but I've got a RIGHT to do this!" Please, we're not talking about voting or equal access. The point audiodb was making was.... oh never mind. You know the point already. You really do.

1. agreement. good. 2. Uh oh... now we're headed downhill. I think you have misunderstood - at least my argument has been misunderstood. Of course the SOUND was the goal, and within the rules those sounds were created as acoustic approximations. 3. No, electronics is not cheating - it's allowed and thus "legal." And I do think there is value in approximating non-musical sounds via acoustic approximation. Why? Because it forces creative thinking. And you know what? I bet - I SERIOUSLY BET - that designers aren't the only ones creating sounds. I assert that if a pit is told "hey, can you figure out a way to make this sound acoustically?" they would take the challenge of it and get really creative. And the more we can educate musicians about acoustic effect, the more they learn to mold acoustic sound to their liking. (oops, I lumped #3 and 4 together, so anyway... moving on...) 5. In some cases electronic instruments are contributing more than sound effects. Of course I can agree with that - I'd be foolish to think otherwise. So what? Let's also acknowledge that part of the thrill of drum corps is hearing arrangers do fantastic things with pieces written for a million different types of musical ensembles/instruments/voices and put them in a new context. I can go hear Rhapsody in Blue as a concert piece 2-3 times a year in various concert halls. I go to a drum corps show to hear something different about that piece. Is it really so hard to grok that "different" in drum corps is a good thing? 6. Ok, with the baling wire and pvc pipe crack we've left the realm of summary debate and gotten into ridicule. Next... 7. Judging for out-of-balance electronics would be good, yes. Too bad the control of balance has very little to do with the performer and a lot to do with a guy and a phone near the press box. (by the way, I sat near such a person - no wait, let me rephrase - such a person chose to sit near me at a show this summer because there was some space there. You know what I heard during the performance? "murmur murmur murmur.... murmur murmur murmur....murmur...." It was especially pleasant to hear him during the softer moments.) But my point is about who is in control of the sound, and that's what makes judging it a dicey subject. 8. Balance to zero? That will only happen if DCI revokes the use of synthesizers. Look, I know it's frustrating when people don't agree with each other, but come on. Do we always have to try to pigeon-hole people and back them into a corner? You knew what I was getting at, you know what Audiodb is getting at, you are not stupid.

1. I don't think acoustic vs. electronic is as "inconsequential" as piston/rotor vs. piston/piston. And I already see that I'm not alone in that opinion. 2. It seemed that your contention was that acoustic vs. electronic is a distinction that "most of us" don't value. If so, I don't think you speak for "most of us" in that case.

Speak for yourself. I can't possibly list all the examples in the time I have, but here are a few: - Late 1960s Kilties simulated train sounds in Chattanooga Choo Choo with horns lip-bending the "train whistle" and percussion (battery only, of course) orchestrating the chugging sound. (Several other corps versions of that percussion effect....Colts early 1970s are one other I can think of off the top of my head.) - 1969 Des Plaines Vanguard opened their show with wailing upper-brass soloists producing "siren" effects. - Circa-1970 Blue Rock had soprano bird calls accenting their ballad. - Early-1970s CMCC Warriors were known for their hornline-produced jungle sound effects. - The 1972 Kilties came off-the-line simulating a pipe band, complete with the low brass providing the drone and upper brass playing all the grace notes. - "Traffic jam" with horns doing the honking (1978 Bridgemen is my personal favorite, though Skyliners are more famous for this). - I can't recall how many times a clever arrangement has evoked the acoustic effect of a battle....countless Troopers shows, the 1980 Bridgemen.... - The "skipping record", complete with repeating music and the "pop" of a scratchy LP, done by Velvet Knights (1983 is my favorite edition). - No pipe organs were allowed in DCI in 1990, but an amazing feat of brass orchestration and performance by Phantom Regiment might make you think otherwise. - 1991 SCV helicopter, complete with left-to-right motion, actually made me look skyward the first time I saw them perform. - 1993 Freelancers simulated electronic reverb by having three soprano screamers play the same solo using carefully-determined delays, horn direction and stadium acoustics to create the echo effect. For me, these moments of acoustic creativity are the highlights of drum corps' genius. They thrilled me live (at least, the ones I could see live, 1981-on), and they continue to thrill me on recordings decades later. We don't have moments like that in DCI anymore. Hearing the Bluecoats use the "reverb" button on their mixing board does not exhibit genius, and does not evoke that same reaction.

You are quite emphatic. I'll try to answer your questions: 1. Instead of having to invent a comparable sound (say, helicopters) via, say, bass drum heads (listen to SCV 1991) you can now do it with a sound patch. Yes, it's simpler and easier now. But it's not as innovative. You don't have to think nearly as much to set the soundscape of your show now that push-button technology is in the mix. Is this a bad thing? To me, yes. To you, no. But you asked me how it's a crutch, and that's how it's a crutch. (I'll get to the corollary argument that the synth is actually a creative force/tool in a moment.) 2. In your second rebuttal, you took issue with my expression of what made drum corps unique. I was directly responding to what someone else said about what made drum corps unique - IN THE CONTEXT OF MARCHING BAND ELECTRONICA which had been available and used in band shows but not adopted by drum corps for many years. Please understand the context. 3. Your next question was how has the unique quality of drum corps has stopped since the use of synths. See my paragraph #1. Synths have made us less unique - i.e. less separated from marching band. 4. Boundless possibilities: ahhhhh the old standby argument of many who have come before you - not just on DCP, either. It's all creativity!!! Yes. And if drum corps wasn't competition-based entertainment (or entertainment-based competition) with an educational component in which a generally "level playing field" is desired, we could have mimes with toy cymbals, cheerleading squads and chocolate covered teddy bears all out on the field being "drum corps." All with synthesized background versions of Maleguena and Over the Rainbow (for us old farts). My completely ridiculous assertion above is really about this: I don't like that a horn line can be "enhanced" by electronically produced power chords - or any other electronic sound - and not have it be openly judged for bad or good. Heck, I wonder if any of those hornlines might have had some holes in their sound or bad releases during those chords that could have cost them a few tenths on the sheets and created more movement in placements. We'll never know, thanks to this particular part of "boundless possibilities." In other words, it's not all good, and it would be nice if a corps or three would make all musical sounds only via acoustic instruments (amplified pit ok) and have zero synthesized sounds just to see if they can compete with the others. I bet they could, and it would be FANTASTIC. In other words, my beef is with designers who use electronics because everyone else is doing it because they are afraid to fall behind. Generally I don't get all worked up about posts like this, but I guess you pushed a button. I'm so funny. p.s. Please know that your last phrase about me not appreciating creativity could have been taken as a little backhanded attempt at calling me a dinosaur. Or, you could have just meant that the current trends are such that I do not like them. I will say this: not liking them in drum corps doesn't mean I don't appreciate them in other contexts. I know I'm fighting an uphill battle about synths because the designers probably don't really care what I think, so it's not like I'm ignorant of that. But I would... appreciate... it if you wouldn't assume anything about what I, well, appreciate.

If he is wrong about drum corps needing woodwinds, could he be wrong about drum corps needing electronics?

Come out for Gulf Coast Sound's first camp of 2011 this Saturday, January 8, 2011 from 10:00-4:00 at Lone Star College-North Harris Campus and get your spot for this years exciting show, "Reincarnation", a Latin show with a modern twist. We're changing things up a bit this year and we think you'll like what we're cookin' up! GCS is in its tenth year of existence. After an incredible decade of growth, the corps has firmly established themselves as one of the most exciting and unique drum corps in the world. We have competed in the Texas Color Guard Circuit, Drum Corps International, Drum Corps Associates South and DCA World Championships. Membership is open to people of any age. Previous drum corps, high school or college marching band experience is highly recommended, but not required. The desire to achieve greatness and entertain crowds across the country is a MUST!!! GCS, now in partnership with Lone Star College-North Harris Campus, has a high quality staff that has worked to design a very reasonable schedule: all rehearsals and performances take place on weekends. This schedule allows members with school, family and career obligations to be part of a top-caliber drum & bugle corps. For more information, please visit: www.gulfcoastsound.org where you'll find out more about GCS, directions to camp, as well as pictures and audio recordings of our recent shows. You can also contact the staff for membership information at info@gulfcoastsound.org. Spots are still open in all sections, brass, percussion (including front ensemble) and colorguard. We hope that you can make it out this weekend and find out more about GCS, whether you are a returning vet or someone who has wanted to get back out on the field again, but thought you couldn't. Come on out, your new family is waiting for YOU! See you this Saturday!!!

Saw this on The Cavaliers Facebook Page. "Top 5 cities represented by the Cavalier Nation on our Facebook Fan Page: 1. Atlanta, Georgia 2. Jakarta, Indonesia 3. Kuala Lumpur, Maylasia 4. Dallas, Texas 5. Houston, Texas" That a big surprise to anyone else? I wonder if the International part of DCI is larger then we thought. I mean, to beat out every US city as far as fan numbers but Atlanta?

Great chart. And, if I recall, a great soprano soloist too. HH

Wait. Justification? Why justification? Why must it be justified? Questions like this feel worthy of religion, not marching band. Like monks and rabbis must weigh the impact of change on our everlasting souls. Drum corps in 1981 marched in the Garden of Eden. Drum Corps in 2011 is contemplating crossing the river Styx. Neither George Hopkins nor Dave Gibbs was complicit in drum corps' original sin. Corps like Bridgemen made it less traditional. Corps like SCV made it less rigid and more contemporary. Electronics is just one more change. There is no sin here, so no justification is necessary. Electronics weren't an option in 1981. They are a viable, even attractive one, in 2011. So we're (WE ARE) using them. HH

My favorite Naffier arrangement is still Summertime from Colts 93.

http://www.dci.org/news/view.cfm?news_id=9f39a6ce-4931-4809-9a8f-0c4b17d63132 Top 5 Audio Performance Downloads (2010 Performances) 1. Carolina Crown A Second Chance 2. Phantom Regiment Into the Light 3. The Cavaliers Mad World 4. Bluecoats Metropolis: The Future Is Now 5. Madison Scouts! Read more: http://www.dci.org/news/view.cfm?news_id=9f39a6ce-4931-4809-9a8f-0c4b17d63132#ixzz1AIvpdStH

Several of them not for publication. OK.... most of them.

Cavies had a template, too. Hence it almost seemed like everyone was trying to put forth some type of "original music" composition on the field. And all the while that was happening, for the most part, BD stayed true to who they were, IMO. I really think that what BD is doing now is their own version of what the Cavies were doing earlier last decade. I remember 2003, when Cavies had their most amazing original show design (Spin Cycle) and it was defeated by BD because they were simply better - not necessarily by design, but by performance and execution. BD has been winning most captions, not restricted to GE alone. So to infer that other corps have to mimic certain aspects of BD's design template in their own unique way in order to complete is not true. And I don't think the judges are only rewarding championships to shows that are abstract or outside the box. Just my 2 cents worth.

and again, who wants to be that elephant in the room? no judge that wants to keep judging.

well, uh yeah it does. the shows are done. unless they recycle them and add it in, it';s exactly what he said

People long for acoustic drum corps. I have a fondness for it myself. One of my favorite drumcorps activities : listening to brass lines with no pit and no battery. But arguing against electronics because it's too "easy" is akin to the "I walked to school in the 10 feet of snow and it was up-hill both ways". All the effects created acoustically were done so out of necessity not (as audiodb would have us believe) preference or superior creative experience. And no one went to shows just to see the occasional effect. Yes it was challenging to create sound effects acoustically. But I see no dearth of challenges facing today's performers. Rehearsal time is a precious quantity. It might be better and more creatively spent on things OTHER than making helicopter noises. In the past corps used sound effects to create mood and enhance GE. Today corps use sound effects to create mood and enhance GE. In that respect nothing has changed except the quality of the effect (generally much better) and the ability of the audience to hear it (generally much better). What *has* changed is that members and staff can spend more time focusing on the actual performance and less time figuring out the gimmick. To me that seems like a net gain. Pushing a button for thunder instead 10 kids shaking sheet metal is an improvement (of the thunder and the contribution of kids who can now actually play music). Drum corps today is nothing like what transpires in any concert hall. It's still unique. It's still different. Arrangers still have to arrange for a very odd mix of instrumentation. The activity still takes place on football fields. You can't go elsewhere to hear or see it. So all of these arguments really boil down to: I liked it the way it was. Well -- drum corps does not stand still. It has evolved from the day it started and is continuing to do so. Every change is met with "but you're changing the fundamental nature of the activity". That's only true if you close your mind to the possibility that each iteration has something unique and valuable to offer. Thunderous goo will subside. Chattering sound techs will be replaced with remote mixing. It will continue to get better. And things that you never imagined will happen. It's all good :-)

High Country Brass Announces Music and Arranger for 2011 Show The Music The year was 1967. A new group took musical direction away from the then-current pop music, to meld rock and blues with horn arrangements and jazz improvisation. The creation of the band was fueled by the “brass-rock” ideas of The Buckinghams, as well as the early 1960s Maynard Ferguson Orchestra. The band was a hit with the audience, who liked the innovative fusion of jazz with acid rock and psychedelia. In 1969 the band performed a five-song set on a rain-delayed Sunday night at Woodstock. In 1970 they won Album of The Year. The name of the band came from the lead musician who had earlier cut his hand, but was focused so intensely during his show that he hardly noticed the blood covering the keyboard he was playing until the music stopped. The name of this group? Blood, Sweat and Tears High Country Brass’ selections from the music of Blood, Sweat and Tears include: “You’ve Made Me So Very Happy” “Lacretia MacEvil” “Sometime In Winter” “Go Down Gambling” But without a good arrangement, four songs would be simply 12 minutes of music. With one of the most talented arrangers and musicians in the drum corps world, four songs can become a symphony of sounds, textures and emotions utilizing all of the weapons in the drum corps arsenal. The Arranger High Country Brass is thrilled to announce that Frank Dorritie will be arranging our musical program this year. Frank has been an instructor and arranger for many of the top junior corps including Blue Devils, Santa Clara Vanguard, Cadets, Bluecoats, and the DCA Open Class corps, the San Francisco Renegades. Frank Dorritie was inducted into the World Drum Corps Hall of Fame in 2004. Frank has been playing the bugle and trumpet since the 1960s. He was the soprano soloist for 10 years with the Long Island Sunrisers before becoming their instructor and arranger. As a performer, Frank holds the DCA Soprano/Trumpet/Tenor Individual titles for 2003, 2005 and 2006. He is also a member of the Buglers Hall of Fame. Not only has Frank been a performer, arranger and instructor, his audio engineering skills have earned him 9 Grammy nominations and 2 Grammys. He has performed with and engineered for many artists, including Kenny Burrell, Cal Tjader, Herb Ellis Trio, Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers, Billy Cobham, Maynard Ferguson and Wynton Marsalis. The Show With percussion parts arranged by David Evans, guard choreography by Lisa Cowden, and drill design by George Lindstrom, HCB will take its 2011 show to a new level. Don’t miss the chance to witness the 2nd year of competition for Colorado’s only all-age drum and bugle corps. Performers and spectators alike will be blown away!

HERE WE COME! Percussion: Join us on on Saturday, Jan 8th from 12p to 5/6p at TAYLOR HIGH SCHOOl, 3101 North Main Street, Taylor, TX, for an all-day percussion camp! We will discuss the plans for the upcoming season including going through warm-up and music rehearsals that day. Their will be a $10 fee for equipment and facility usage. Brass/Guard: Join us on Sunday, Jan 9 at 6 pm at MANGIA Pizza 8012 Mesa Drive, Austin TX 78731! We will discuss the plans for the upcoming season including going through warm-up and music rehearsals that day. No Charge for this meeting. Bring $ to get something to eat or drink!

No - I'm not. I asked you what you thought they'd choose? Is it really so hard to imagine that having helicopter noises was the INTENT of SCV? That it makes sense with their concept. Virtually every example you've cited were effects designed to compliment the theme somehow. They weren't some arbitrary display of virtuoso acoustic sound effect creation (btw i noticed you didn't answer the question!) Hate to break this to you but the youth need something to play. Like any performing art, the end product is a fusion of the designer's vision and the performer's realization. It takes both parts. Nice re-direction by the way. Evasion is always a good tactic when you don't have a response. The reason you're evasive is you know very well that it's better to spend time teaching the performers about brass, percussion, and spinning then it is to waste time trying re-create a sound that's easily reproduced by other means. Much better to work on music with your front ensemble then gimmicks. I guess no one use playing backfield effectively this season.....wow. And Crown's stereo effect on the stings during the 1st mahler. No effect there. Phantom playing from the tunnel. No effect there either.

Circular argument. Everyone is using them therefore they must not have a choice but to use them.No one is being compelled. Corps are choosing to use them. You've already provided the citation: it was passed by the directors of the very corps who are now being "compelled". And this proves ... that they all felt electronics were worth using in some way their program? I get the argument you're making -- that "keeping up with the Jones'" is in play. But it's equally as likely that all those corps are finding value in their use of electronics as well. It's not an either/or proposition.

speculation. show me the evidence to back up your statement. It just as easily could be said that "every corps thought there was some way in electronics could enhance their product". they voted them in -- isn't possible they actually wanted to use to them ? no -- on second thought -- much more fun to say they were COMPELLED !

Speaking as a DC fan of one I can see one big distinction IMO. Horns went thru many changes thru the decades but going from no valve Gs to current 3v Bbs they still remained horns. I'm impressed by the music performed by the one valve horns but glad the sound is better today. And being able to play all the notes now is more fun. But when anyone brings up electronics they need to remember that this is something other than the horn/percussion line up that corps had since the beginning. Yes horns and percussion changed over the decades but they stayed horns and percussion. Trying to compare adding electronics to horn/perc changes is an "apples vs oranges" to me. Or perhaps apples vs tomatos (after saying that tomatos are a fruit).

Us? Drum corps fans in general. Surely you don't disagree? I said: It's also as inconsequential as arguing that playing well on fewer (or no) valves was more difficult and thus a greater achievement. It is true. To most of us, however, it's a distinction we don't value. The "us" in that case refers to the general consensus among drum corps fans that there is no reason to return to piston-rotor bugles just because playing well was a more profound achievement without valves. I don't think there is much dispute today about that. Yet a similar argument is being made for all-acoustic drum corps as if difficulty and purity were the only standards. As I said, there really are few instances where these wonderful acoustic effects will be short-circuited by electronics. The helicopters and its ilk probably would be relegated to drum corps trivia sessions were it not for this discussion. Drum corps can define itself quite well without them. HH

Just this once, I'm glad a button was pushed regarding drum corps.

But we don't have to "let other people in". We're not keeping anyone out.

I can't tell. They're both so false, I can't even speculate which it could be.

Done.

but it isn't. why? because no one wants to be that elephant in the room. "hey Gibbs, had to nail ya tonight...too much goo...sorry, 8.7" see that guy out of a gig fast

If there are no more marching ensembles whose winds instruments are limited to brass, and I call that specific configuration an art form, how can you say that no art form is being eliminated?

A person for whom volume control requires no real effort. Did any corps use synthesizers in 2008? Were they even allowed that year? (I just went through Jolesch's percussion photos for the 2008 and 2009 Blue Devils, likely to lead the way in "innovation". I didn't see a synth in the 2008 photos --my favorite of the past four years' BD shows, despite some overamplification in the pit-- but it does appear in the 2009 photos.) If not, I'm not sure your point stands. I'm going to try another sports analogy (one I mentioned in passing earlier). Think of drum corps as being like the high jump. The goal of the high jump is to loft oneself over the bar -- under one's one strength. The goal of drum corps is (or ought to be, in my opinion) to create a big beautiful sound -- under one's own strength. Adding electronics to drum corps is like adding a trampoline to the high jump. Sure it makes it easier, but it takes away the challenge. Or try this: once hologram technology is sufficiently developed, the guard will be able to appear to be tossing hundreds with their rifles. What's the difference between that and electronic music, in which the corps can create any sound at all, as loud as they want, with very little effort?

Meh, I appreciate your opinion but I disagree. DCI wants to make fans out of attendees, right? Well, let an attendee hear helicopters and see bass drum heads, or hear military footfalls and see woodblocks, and it will always evoke a "Wow!" factor. You may say the average attendee doesn't care how the sound is created, but that's only because he hears those sound effects every time he takes his girlfriend to the movies to watch Terminator 21, or the like. It's not new coming from a synth patch, so it evokes no "Wow!" factor at all. But the guard under the shields, the corps under the Phantom silk, the magician making the girl disappear, the helicopter flying overhead...those were real, visceral BECAUSE they were analog. Those visual and audible moments, combined with the analog music of such power, creates the moments that turn attendees into fans. Those things did it for most of us on this thread (the dinos) and the ironic thing is that those analog moments are more rare and impressive in today's electronic world. Why not holographic ballet dancers then?

1. if they are used to double ANY, they are being used wrong. I don't wanna hear synth...I wanna hear little Cindy play her trumpet...or baritone...or tuba...or xylophone. 2. ehhh...to me, SCV doing the helicopter sound was infinitely more impressive than pressing a button. Phantom making the marching troops sound in '08 was much better than a synth could have done it... 3. Sure, when drum corps were started up, there were lots of other performance groups that were acoustic..they didn't have a whole lot of choice. How many of those other performance groups were designed for outdoor performance on a football field? marching band, and drum corps. Drum corps sounded different than marching band. Marching bands had woodwinds, and most probably used Bb horn instrumentation. (that's just a guess...I dunno what a 50's marching band's horn key was) Marching band was for the kid in school that either wanted to play an instrument, or was forced to play an instrument my their parents. For many, and still to this day, marching band is just a social club. There are far more social club marching bands in the U.S. than there are BOA marching bands. Drum corps was for the kid off the street that didn't know anything about music, and the marching band person that wanted more/better. That started changing in the 70's. It started to become more about the marching band person that wanted to be in the elite...wanted to be in a drum corps. Drum corps did things marching bands couldn't dream of. The incredible sounds of a G line wailing at stadium filled fans was awesome. The sounds of a woodwind filled marching band? not so much... Drum corps was the pied piper...marching band was the mice. And then marching band started to get more organized...boa, ussba, etc...and they said bands could use electric. (i'm heaping all the stuff..amps, mic's, synths, into electric) Marching bands all over the country are using electric. They didn't have the pure brass sound that was loud enough, or the time to come up with creative ways to make certain noises, or they flat out used them to cover up weak sections. Now, drum corps are doing the same thing. Marching band is the pied piper...drum corps is the mice. A lot of people...a LOT...that like drum corps don't like marching band. I wouldn't pay a dollar to go see Tarpon Springs if they were playing in my neighbors yard. Drum corps used to the leader...now it's not..because they have sold out their uniqueness...acoustic brass and drums. 4. If I want a bridge made out of spaghetti and meatballs, I have that option..I can go watch a BOA show. 5. examples of easy button = synthesizers doubling brass parts. use of bass and electric guitar, instead of transcribing the music to a brass part. Synth patch instead of a creative acoustic solution. mic'ing brass soloists... as far as performances getting harder...sure, the marching is...and that in turn makes playing harder, but brass books decades ago were harder to play than today's brass books. Drum corps are sacrificing musicality for physicality. I wouldn't pay to watch BD's drill with no music, but I would pay money to hear Crown's music with no drill. 6. the higher the tempo, the less notes you can push through a horn. there's a lot more "jazz run 10 yards and play a whole note" than there used to be. There's a lot more "bazillion notes in 2 measures followed by a chord stinger" than their used to be. Music is being designed to follow drill design, when it used to be the drill was designed to follow the music. the designing is the issue that most have that are of the older school. designers are designing shows to please the judges, not the audience. That much is apparent from BD's last 2 offerings. George Hopkins has flat out said he could care less what the audience wants. you said "Designers decide whats important for them in a show, and they decide how much to cater to a progressive audience or a traditional audience while still winning first place." the way shows are judged now, you CAN'T win first place and cater to the audience, except for one exception...Phantom '08, and to be honest, BD was a lot cleaner in '08. Designers are designing there shows aiming at the judges first, and then toss the crowd a bone if we can. the audience is who pays the bills, and there are still a lot more old schoolers out there then there are the new progressives. designers should be aiming at the check writer, and not the judges...continuing a judging formula that consistently goes against the wishes of the cash cow is not a way to keep the activity alive.

1. they are used to double brass parts...they are used to make "sounds" that corps would otherwise have to use their imagination to create. 2. It was available. It was impractical. Drum corps was designed with acoustic instruments that didn't need amplification, so there was no need for it...and yes, that made drum corps unique. 3. The more constraints you have to produce, the more creative you have to be. Anyone can build a bridge with no material constraints, but you have to be creative to make a viable bridge with just popsicle sticks and bubble gum. Another thing is when you have 10 media to work with, instead of 50, it's easier to balance...easier to polish, and isn't as "busy". When you have boundless possibilities, it's MUCH easier to do something different, but easier doesn't = better. In the last decade we've added more "easy buttons" than Staples. For a niche performance based entertainment media, easy button = bad. as stolen from Jimmy Dugan..."It's supposed to be hard. If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard... is what makes it great."

Eh.. it is what it is. They wanted some new toys because they had them at their fall/winter gig. Do I like it? No. Do I think it is going away? No. Do I think anyone who was involved in this decision really gives a rats ### what most of us think? No.

Sure....but when "marching band does it" is used as justification for a change, don't be surprised if that doesn't satisfy everyone's concerns. Wow....you really don't get it at all, do you? If no one cared how the sounds are produced, no one would ever have trekked out to football fields in mid-summer to hear a bunch of horns and drums try to make music while moving around. If anything, it ought to have been more of a fascination decades ago, when instrumentation was more limited. Oh, that's right - crowds were larger back then. 1. You don't think that the percussion innovators that produced the "helicopters" of '91 SCV, or the "skipping record" of '83 VK, could replicate a "bite" sound? 2. I'll bet the Bluecoats had a good enough trumpet player that could have doubled the bari soloist in his/her own octave. 3. While acoustic drum corps hasn't duplicated all the sounds of an electric guitar, it sure is fun to hear talented brass players adapt guitar music to their own instruments(including Teal Sound's own soloists and tuba section). 4. Go listen to 2003 Carolina Crown....plenty of glass sounds in that show. More reliable? You can't get this stuff to work in bad weather, and often won't even try due to safety concerns. Even in nice conditions, how reliable were the Bluecoats' vocal parts in 2008? Amplification failures are too numerous to list here. No argument from me there. Since there are 100 times as many marching bands now, they're bound to come up with some ideas "first". I'm sure there are....and I know they use those talents for far better things than the "apple bite" effect (which is basically "push a button"). I also know that there are some pretty impressive field musicians getting drowned out at times because the impressive musician at the synthesizer has no control over what the sound board operator is doing. Amplification's issues are often no fault of the performers, and not within the performers' ability to fix.

You do understand all brass marching bands have been around a LONG time right?

So Drum Corps didn't worry about technique back in the G days (a whole 10 or so years ago)? Yeah, I just remember hearing sooooo many people say they didn't care if they played like crap or not.

BITD, many members of the T-birds, Lawmen, Regimental Cadets and Statenaires would hang out TOGETHER at either Denino's Tavern in Port Richmond ( GREAT pizza! ) or at Charlie and El's Pine Room in Rosebank, not far from the VN Bridge. Great drinks and a sing-along piano player most Friday and Saturday nights. Competitors ON the field, good friends OFF the field to this day. Ray

Between the various audition/experience camps so far, they've had close to 200 brass audition. The reports of 80 brass, including a flugelhorn line (for the full show) are correct. Both of my nephews have contracts, one on flugel (returning veteran) the other on Baritone. They've given contracts to the kids they definitely want, but haven't made any cuts yet - so the remaining spots have a lot of kids competing for them. I don't have a count on returning vets, but I've been hearing positive things about good numbers. The show doesn't have a 'theme'. Like Madison did last year, it will be a mix of tunes. I played through some of the flugel parts: there's some challenging moving parts and some beautiful sections in a ballad. I won't spill the beans on which tunes though, you'll have to wait for the official announcement. The brass staff is mostly Star/Blast people, and yes, they are amazing (ok, I have a huge bias here because they're friends that I've performed with, but I'm nowhere near alone in my assessment of their teaching skills). Pretty much a clean sweep on staff from last year to this, though there are a few returning techs. Part of the brass line expansion will come at the expense of the pit. Synth players got axed and I've been told there will be NO SYNTH this year!! Woohooo!!!

Want justification for the flugels? Listen to 2002 Crossmen. Those guys never stopped playing.

I certainly agree with this statement - and I am not sure of any deal that includes a Flugle with the purchase of a trumpet. If so, sign me up! If bones are looking for a powerful hornline sound, flugles are definitely leading them in the wrong direction. I am curious to find out if the flugles would be used the entire show or as a part of a feature somehow. In that event - more power to them

Not to mention carting another complete set of unifoms around.

While I don't necessarily think staffers should be silent during the show, I appreciate their honest reactions. As for non-staffers shouting things to make the album, shut up, get a instrument, and let your music speak for you. Yelling something and trying to be part of the show is nothing short of disrespectful to the marching members and activity.

From Crossmen alumnus Kyle B.: Thinking of Chuck Naffier's pitch-perfect arrangements, combined with what looks to be a return to the traditional focus on entertainment in the form of natural musical and visual excellence, made me literally shiver at the prospect of that ineffable "Crossmen groove" returning once again. Should be interesting.

Another misleading thread title... since currently we don't have any official word from the corps.

Yep all 23 felt compelled to use them because they have worked ever so well. I suppose it's always better to just assume no one gets penalized for not pushing the DCI agenda (of course they also will never get full credit for what they do). I mean look at all the G horn lines still....oh wait. Look at all the drum lines still using ...oh wait. Look at all the corps without amps..oh wait.

Synths were not allowed in 2008.