chaddyt Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 the problem is this: the designers feel they need it. To them it's perfect. And if it's bad, and to truly send a message, a judge can't just drop 1/2 tenths. Show long balance, of the say painful Crown 09 Allentown variety needs a message of, oh say a point. Once, once I saw a judge in DCi do this. Bluecoats 08 Allentown, the 2nd Perc judge. Most of the Allentown panel worked finals week. That guy didn't. I remember a story about a WGI judge doing it once too, and no longer working there because the Ind. Worlds raised holy hell. There's negative with a couple of tenths drop, or a comment that may hurt feelings. There's truly a difference between that and saying "your balance for the whole show was horrible, and I'm sorry, but welcome back to box 4 tonight". I loved Crown 09. But that night at Allentown, 20 some ros off the field, I COULDNT HEAR THE HORNLINE at times. that hornline was covered up by the pit's volume. 19 something in ensemble music?? I know people on the 20's who said it was painful. Well, if that's truly the case, then I say the judges ban together and give the number they feel is appropriate. If that knocks all corps using synth poorly down a point, so be it. DCI cannot afford to be hiring/training new pro-synth-regardless judges, and we're all aware of that. No judges, no competition. No competition, no DCI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1223 Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 any judge with common sense and a feeling of job security will not take a stand big enough to affect change. C'mon Jeff. If judges think this is an issue, if directors think this is an issue, if DCI administrators think this is an issue then they would of course be discussing it and resolving it! There are always disagreements about how to judge every caption. You need to define what perfection is each year and that's what the judges and directors decide on. With the new equipment, its only logical that the standard of "perfection" will be higher. I'm sure directors and judges can agree on that for 2011. That's WHY thy suggested a rule proposal, because they wanted the standards to be HIGHER. You'll see a big difference in the way ensemble music caption is judged this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mello Dude Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 C'mon Jeff. If judges think this is an issue, if directors think this is an issue, if DCI administrators think this is an issue then they would of course be discussing it and resolving it! There are always disagreements about how to judge every caption. You need to define what perfection is each year and that's what the judges and directors decide on. With the new equipment, its only logical that the standard of "perfection" will be higher. I'm sure directors and judges can agree on that for 2011. That's WHY thy suggested a rule proposal, because they wanted the standards to be HIGHER. You'll see a big difference in the way ensemble music caption is judged this year. Jeff is absolutely correct. You do understand that if some judge were to penalize a top 8 corps for goo that they would be gone? Can you IMAGINE, for some reason the amps and synth were making a HORRENDOUS sound at an important show and the corps actually got docked for it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1223 Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Jeff is absolutely correct. You do understand that if some judge were to penalize a top 8 corps for goo that they would be gone? That's not a fact. You don't have proof of that at all. They penalize a corps if someone fracks a note... ofcourse it wasn't done on purpose, it was a lip or breath malfunction! It's no different. Directors know this, judges know this, everyone knows this. I don't honestly think there is somehow a "double standard" when it comes to synthesizer because people say there is. If there is a "double standard" the recent rule change effectively eliminates it because there is no longer a defense to hide behind... unless judges and directors lower their standards for drum corps which I don't think anyone wants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 you keep thinking that. DCI knows otherwise. if they didn't, you wouldn't see the Cesario push, the TOC and other things being done to boost business They'd be nuts to stand pat, whatever the numbers are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjeffeory Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 IMO there is no 'issue'...this is just the usual cast of anti-electronics people on DCP trying to make something from nothing. Really? Not me. If the balance issues would be resolved, or would have been resolved in the several years they have HAD the chance to be resolved, people would probably be OK. The insult to injury is that the balance is too slanted to the pit. Now we have this new voice this is also too loud. It's thunderous goo! As I always say.... Balance is the key... That would quiet a good portion of the "anti" amps crowd ( which I assume includes anti-electronics)... But hey, let's make this a polarizing topic, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjeffeory Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 C'mon Jeff. If judges think this is an issue, if directors think this is an issue, if DCI administrators think this is an issue then they would of course be discussing it and resolving it! There are always disagreements about how to judge every caption. You need to define what perfection is each year and that's what the judges and directors decide on. With the new equipment, its only logical that the standard of "perfection" will be higher. I'm sure directors and judges can agree on that for 2011. That's WHY thy suggested a rule proposal, because they wanted the standards to be HIGHER. You'll see a big difference in the way ensemble music caption is judged this year. You're such an optimist! I've been around long enough to know that big changes don't happen all at once. It's little changes each year that add up to a big change a decade later... If there is deemed to be an issue, it will take forever to fix the culture currently in place. That's the way it works for any organization unless there's some sort of revolution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glory Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 This notion that the DCI judges have been intimidated into a silent conspiracy on this alleged “goo” doesn't hold water. It’s a convenient theory if you’re bent against amps and synths. But every judge empowered to judge ensemble sound ignoring ensemble imbalance? That sounds to me like we’re two players short of a duet. Or at least one short. What’s more likely is something far less nefarious. First, we can’t rule out the possibility that the judges don’t dislike the synthetic sounds the way some here do. I know this is a tough concept for some in the DCP echo chamber to accept, but some of us don’t hear what you do. I’m on record in this thread as saying in nine shows last summer, it didn’t occur to me that this “goo” y’all refer to was something worth commenting on. I’m sure others feel the same. Maybe the judges too. But even granting the existence of and distaste for some “goo,” there are explanations other than conspiracy to explain why this doesn’t figure on the judges sheets. We also have to recall that we don’t tic anymore. Negative “goo” instances might actually figure into the scoring though not in the hang-Quaddafi-from–the-streetlamp fashion y’all would like. The “goo” is one of many factors in ensemble sound that factor into the scoring. In a tic-less world it’s not necessary to call out “goo” any more than any other incremental shortcoming. Indeed, the judging emphasis is on achievement, which necessarily means the judges are focused (and commenting) more on what’s going well. Another explanation could be that if all the corps are “goo-ing” equally, then there is no scoring effect to notice. Judging after all is a comparative exercise. To the extent that all the corps are good, bad or otherwise in this category, there is less for the judges to compare. If I’m hearing y’all right, everyone is guilty. If that’s the case, there is little differentiation for the judges to make. In any event, the best explanation is the judges, like many of us in the crowd, actually like the way drum corps sounds today. It’s not that this “goo” doesn’t exist. It’s just that it exists as one minor voice in a heavenly chorus that – maybe not incidentally – happens to use Bb instruments, electronic amplification and music major players. It's possible. More possible than DCI brownshirts cowing judges into silence. HH 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottgordon Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 One of the things that saddens me about the use of synths to double the tubas, is that I can no longer tell which corps have powerful contras (tubas), and which don't. Phantom 1989 was the most powerful contra line I ever heard. It is becoming clear to me that in my experience as a fan, that is unlikely to ever be eclipsed - not because there won't be (or hasn't been) a more powerful tuba line, but because I won't be able to know it because of TG. That is, either: 1) the goo will be poorly blended and will cover up the contras (tubas), or 2) the goo will be so expertly blended that it will boost the contras and I won't be able to tell if the power is coming from the contras or the synths. Of course, the on field judge, who is on the opposite side of the speakers, will be able to hear and assess the contra line. But from a fan's vantage point, from now on I will forever be wondering if that big low end horn sound is really real or the product of electronic trickery. Sorry, but I believe that I will always prefer the purity of all-acoustic drumcorps. I'm also deeply grateful to have heard Phantom's New World Symphony without synths. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mello Dude Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 That's not a fact. You don't have proof of that at all. They penalize a corps if someone fracks a note... ofcourse it wasn't done on purpose, it was a lip or breath malfunction! It's no different. Directors know this, judges know this, everyone knows this. I don't honestly think there is somehow a "double standard" when it comes to synthesizer because people say there is. If there is a "double standard" the recent rule change effectively eliminates it because there is no longer a defense to hide behind... unless judges and directors lower their standards for drum corps which I don't think anyone wants. Hmm, define fact? I can think of MANY shows where the entire corps show was based on a single soloist and they, for whatever reason, blew it and the corps didn't suffer accordingly in placement. Go back and take a gander at some placement scores sometime vs performance. I don't understand why someone runs to a conspiracy thought because people are people? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.