Blue Devils Calendar

[Jeff Ream]

Think of it as similar to hearing the pulsing in a long roll (Suncoast 84 in the drum break....you could hear the right hand attacks a bit louder than the left...even a horn guy like ME could hear it)

some of that may be staging vs mic placement. I know on the recordings 88 VK's snare line sounds like a pile of ###. But live it was pretty ###### good

[cowtown]

BD doesn't even have drill per se -- it's organic staging (a la winterguard). During the season the dots are eventually formalized, entered into pyware, and then handed out to the members. Listen to Scott Chandler talk about it at the marching roundtable.

I have to admit I'm a little skeptical about some of the credit they receive in visual ensemble. Prima facie their composition value is far weaker than Cadets or Crown. There's very little "drill" to judge. Personally I think that conventional drill should always be a part of the activity. I have no problem wandering away into 'staged productions' for a while but I think "drill" is a fundamental component of drum corps and there should be a good chunk of it in a show.

Would love to see BD attempt a Cadets show and see how well they could play while running through a Sacktig closer. I think the whole "we're so good we make it look easy" thing might revealed as hype. On the flip side Cadets would completely fail at all the dance/movement you see in a BD production.

In the end -- if you read the DCI Visual Analysis sheet -- the language is sufficiently broad that BD's productions can be judged right along side a more conventional drill program.

Thanks for the heads up and the link, I’ll have to make time to listen to that but it fits with what I’ve seen from their drill. It would also explain why they are always so well staged. Mentioned this before but, I watched a snare-cam and it really looked more like running to props than marching drill. I wonder if other corps would get the same numbers with the same kind of drill – or if it’s like the Michael Jordon, NBA thing, were you earn the benefit of the doubt and magically fouls disappear and appear to your advantage (and I say that as a Bulls, MJ fan but hey, we knew the deal)

But it works for them and they do it well – so good for them, use it

One of the reads I get from the BD calendar is that they are doing the G1 instead of the G7. The System Blue clinics must pay more than the shows, they get all the door, so to the victors all the spoils and again, if it works for them, good, use it

But it’s not really sustainable for all of Drum Corps and other Drum Corps do sustain BD, just imagine if all the top corps did only 23 shows a year and the rest of their time was on clinics…

Then it gets into that strage grey area to me….charge the marchers to help instruct the band kid to sell the products of the corps sponsors…it’s like the Org and staff is getting paid by all sides,,,G_d Bless the Free Market…I guess this is the business side of Drum corps=marching band

[saxfreq1128]

I think you can put advanced concepts in conventional drill, and I think there are huge differences in the styles of corps like Cadets Cavies and Crown.

But the difficulty is not only in the drill....I believe the most challenging part of any show this year is when Crown is stretched pretty much from end zone to end zone and there are 4 sets of timpani and 3 sets of bass drums all playing at the same time.....there are also parts of Crowns show where they are in 8 step intervals covering the entire field and still playing like a million bucks.

I agree that Crown has an incredible amount of ensemble and individual difficulty this year, and is really pulling it off.

I also think ensemble difficulty seems like something people aren't as quick to give credit for. And I think of BD as an ensemble difficulty corps. I can't help but think of that stretch in 2010 when they put a glass wall between their higher and lower brass. During a jazz ballad! Who does that? Music ensemble issues abounded for most of the season. But it's also not the kind of thing that gets people out of their seats the way whiplash drill does, and I think that's worth lamenting.

As for this year, I think BD is offering a difficult ensemble production. I think Crown is offering a difficult ensemble production that also happens to be the toughest to march and play on the field this year. If Crown cleans up, that could make all the difference, deservingly so. Even if they don't, they might still win. I repeat: Four Corners.

[84BDsop]

The lights not working was not the fault of the corps, but the fault of the organizers.

Actually, the fault of the SCHOOL, but yeah.

I read your original comment as the lights out not being a reason not to perform.

[Plan9]

I understand that BDs difficulty comes from exploring concepts that honestly takes a much more mature performer. I understand the performer has to be able to make the concept work and translate it to the audience, and that is no small task, but it seems to be that the show designers have taken a much more WGI approach with every element down to the on field drill.

Its like comparing the first movement to Folk Song Suite, to Irish Tune....they are both grade 4's but which one is easier? Folk Song Suite is technically harder, but Irish Tune take more maturity and more control.....I do understand that concept.

If we were talking about the music alone, this whole discussion would have no basis because BD always has one of the most demanding horn books,however movement is as much a part of drum corps as the music is, and while conceptually there is alot to a BD show, just following the contra section, you can see that there is a substantial difference in the physicality of the corps compared to Crown and Cadets on many levels. Its much easier to hit dots when you are marching in closer intervals with smaller steps, and much easier to do very difficult moves when not playing.

I am not saying BD is not an elite group, but what I am saying is that their difficulty comes from concept and not application. I think this entire line of thought goes away if they do a show with more conventional drill.

But that's precisely why their shows are valued by the judging community and also drive the fan base to their respective corners. The line that their designs are taking these days, fly in the face of convention and give no excuses or apologies if you don't get it or get it and don't like it. There are plenty of other designs on the field (always) that scatch the itch of classic drum corps, but BD just doesn't appear to be interested very much in classic drum corps unless it's a point of departure or it's augered through some worm hole......and many of us out here just love it!!!

Also, difficulty is a strange beast that can be defined in a number of ways, including speed of drill & complexitiy of score....but also in precision and intigration. In short, sometimes..simple can be very difficult.

[MikeN]

So, if I'm reading this right, when someone says "Blue Devils have easier shows," we're not talking about brass (their books aren't easier) or drums (their books *definitely* aren't easier) or guard (their repertoires aren't easier)... so we're focusing strictly on marching, and saying, "their drill isn't as hard as Cadets, Cavaliers or Crown?"

Just making sure.

Mike

[Plan9]

So, if I'm reading this right, when someone says "Blue Devils have easier shows," we're not talking about brass (their books aren't easier) or drums (their books *definitely* aren't easier) or guard (their repertoires aren't easier)... so we're focusing strictly on marching, and saying, "their drill isn't as hard as Cadets, Cavaliers or Crown?"

Just making sure.

me

Mike

Are you talkin' to me?.....are you talkin' to me? Cause I'm the only one here....so you must be talkin' to me!

I (for one) am sure as hell not saying BD's shows are easy....just the opposite. My argument is with the conventional measurements of difficult.

[flammaster]

I like to hear interesting and difficult music. I don't much care about visuals if all you are playing is lame stuff. I really like the Crown show this year! If they win that is good but i still like the BD show better.

[dapperpoet]

So, I'm a little confused. Here you have a unique corps that does things that no one else does, is known for pushing various envelopes, and attracts people through their excellence in marching and musicianship to the activity. Members within DCI recognize that BD does things differently many are also attracted by that to march there. I'm not sure what the count is this year, but last year BD had members who had previously marched every other corps in World Class. So the complaint, as I understand it, "Yeah, they've won 14 DCI championships, but I bet if they marched like corps X they'd be even better"?

BTW, just for the sake of interest, the rumor is that there MANY homages to different corps and different marching styles in BD's current show. Perhaps that is a way of saying, "Yes, we can, if wanted to, do that."

Pick a very successful and unique college basketball team: Indiana's glory years under Bob Knight, Dean Smith's four corners, Nolan Richardson's 40 minutes of hell, Tark's Runnin' Rebels, UCLA under Wooden, and Duke under coach K. I don't think ever heard a commentator while they were winning championships say, "Well yes, they beat everyone, but it's too bad they don't play like X"

Edited July 11, 2012 by dapperpoet

[mn trumpter guy]

So, I'm a little confused. Here you have a unique corps that does things that no one else does, is known for pushing various envelopes... Members within DCI recognize that BD does things differently ...

I clipped some statements from the original- I'll come back to them.

Yes, BD is 'unique' in it's own way. I would argue that pretty much every corps in the top 12 at least, and through the -teens also have their own personality, and if you went up to them and told them they were generic or bland, they would probably get a wee bit mad.

[bD] attracts people through their excellence in marching and musicianship to the activity. Members within DCI recognize that BD does things differently many are also attracted by that to march there.

I would argue that corps like the Cadets or Cavaliers, who tend to have exciting shows that don't require intense thought or 'understanding' attract people to the activity far more than the heady shows BD has been putting out for the last few years. Some people may be attracted to march at BD because of the show design- I won't say they're not. I know many people, however, march BD because they know there is a standard of excellence there, and they have a good chance of winning. I won't say 'ring chasers,' but if you want to have a good chance of winning, you go to who has won the most.

I'm not sure what the count is this year, but last year BD had members who had previously marched every other corps in World Class.

I don't think that's true... since you can march in World Class from age 14-21, giving you at most 8 years. There are 12 corps in finals each year, and 20-some in World Class total... the math don't add up.

So the complaint, as I understand it, "Yeah, they've won 14 DCI championships, but I bet if they marched like corps X they'd be even better"?

No, I think the complaint is "Yeah, they've won 14 DCI championships, but I don't like the shows they win with as much as Corps X or Corps Y." There is a difference. Would BD be "better" if they did a show like the Cadets? I don't think so- it's not what they do. It's not a BD-style show.

BTW, just for the sake of interest, the rumor is that there MANY homages to different corps and different marching styles in BD's current show. Perhaps that is a way of saying, "Yes, we can, if wanted to, do that."

Maybe. I haven't seen their show this year. Based on my past interactions with BD members, I guess I don't see this as being true. But, I am wrong from time to time (believe it or not)

Pick a very successful and unique college basketball team: Indiana's glory years under Bob Knight, Dean Smith's four corners, Nolan Richardson's 40 minutes of hell, Tark's Runnin' Rebels, UCLA under Wooden, and Duke under coach K. I don't think ever heard a commentator while they were winning championships say, "Well yes, they beat everyone, but it's too bad they don't play like X"

Apples and Oranges. Basketball is a fairly black-and-white game- you score points by repeating an action over and over again. At the end of the game, the most points wins. In drum corps, there are (I'm sorry in advance) 50 shades of grey. There's no way to tell what will or what won't score points (design-wise) until all is said and done.

In the end I think it comes down to this: some people like shows that are exciting and clearly difficult from a physical standpoint, and some people like shows that are complex and hard to understand. I have yet to see a show that was both.

I will say this though: if DCI wants to continue functioning, I think they (and we) need to think about what makes people excited about the activity. IMO, it is shows like Cadets, Cavaliers (usually- haven't seen them this year), etc. that get people excited about DCI. Just my thoughts.