Hot, Hot, Hotlanta

[BRASSO]

This is more than fans not being happy with the judging. But let's be honest, most judges know, within a 2 tenths range, where they are going to put a corps. It has been that way for years. That is how many people in the stands can preguess scores before the shows. I am not saying they are always inaccurate, but we would be blind to not be aware of the situation.

I had no idea that the Glassmen were going to beat the Madison Scouts in percussion in Atlanta..... Few people thought the Cadets would win percussion either... few predicted the caption scores in Guard, or the placement scores " by tenths " that I'm aware of. So I 'm a bit mysterfied by this comment of the fans in the stands( and judges ) being able to predict all the caption scores " within tenths " within any given nite. The fact that we have so many captioned judged sections does tend to have a leveling out effect so that in the end the overall placements seem to make sense to most knowledgeable observers and veterans of the activity. I'm pretty sure however that nobody thought Madison would be 13th in Drums in Atlanta... and likeise, few thought Boston's Guard would drop 1.5 points in Dallas and finish 8th out of 8 Corps there in Guard in less than 60 hours... and then quickly get a bump up in Guard scores 24 hours later after that. Cavs 8th in Brass in Atanta was a surprise to me too. And I thought Jersey Surf would finish in the top 20 in the General Effect captions, and when they didn't I never saw that one coming in Atlanta either.. not only not " by tenths " but I was way off after watching them with their GE Music score they ultimately received in this caption. Plenty of other examples that the prediction " by tenths " in the judged captions was not something that I was going to be able to do anyway. But who knows, maybe others predicted the subcaptions within " tenths " beforehand ( and afterwards ) in Atlanta way better than I could. Thats possible. As I was WAY off on some of these caption scores and placements. And I usually am. I don't think the judges know what number they are going to put down in a show before they judge, nor the placements they are going to put down. Hell, I'm not totally convinced they know what the number and placements were AFTER they come out of the judged show sometimes.

Edited July 29, 2012 by BRASSO

[ApathyJones]

Woohoo ! More BD-honk mind-reading. I swear to god they're ALL on the psychic friends network this year.

The crowd boo's because they disagree with the outcome. WHY they disagree -- you don't (and can't know).

Which of these two do you think is more likely; everyone that is booing in the crowd is more knowledgeable than the judges judging the competition and they are booing because they can tell from the stands that the judges are getting it wrong, OR that they are booing because the corps they like more didn't win or that the corps they hate did win?

Seriously, which of these 2 do you think is more likely?

[Kamarag]

And I thought Jersey Surf would finish in the top 20 in the General Effect captions, and when they didn't I never saw that one coming in Atlanta either..

This alone is proof that you can change the sheets anyway you want, but until you overhaul the judging philosophy on what is rewarded, nothing will change. If "audience engagement" was truly being scored and rewarded as the sheets are set up, Surf would have placed in the top five in GE Music and GE Visual (but clearly not in the ensemble and performance captions).

[GUARDLING]

Which of these two do you think is more likely; everyone that is booing in the crowd is more knowledgeable than the judges judging the competition and they are booing because they can tell from the stands that the judges are getting it wrong, OR that they are booing because the corps they like more didn't win or that the corps they hate did win?

Seriously, which of these 2 do you think is more likely?

the only thing booing does is pump up who was #2 or whatever and gives booers the sense others might agree with them ..which they will then call it the majority as far as judges..they , most of the time dont hear it nor do they care whos booing

Edited July 29, 2012 by GUARDLING

[GUARDLING]

This alone is proof that you can change the sheets anyway you want, but until you overhaul the judging philosophy on what is rewarded, nothing will change. If "audience engagement" was truly being scored and rewarded as the sheets are set up, Surf would have placed in the top five in GE Music and GE Visual (but clearly not in the ensemble and performance captions).

ok my friend I agree with ya all day .but ya lost me here top 5 would be insane...although they have got attention......jmo...dont kill....lol

I do agree about judging system but would add many judges to this

Edited July 29, 2012 by GUARDLING

[corpsband]

Which of these two do you think is more likely; everyone that is booing in the crowd is more knowledgeable than the judges judging the competition and they are booing because they can tell from the stands that the judges are getting it wrong, OR that they are booing because the corps they like more didn't win or that the corps they hate did win?

Seriously, which of these 2 do you think is more likely?

First this is a false dichotomy. There are more than two alternatives. And your choices aren't even really a dichotomy anyway :-\

Fans disagree with judges because:

1. They hate BD.

2. They are CC diehards.

3. They thought the CC show more effective than the BD.

4. They were entertained more by CC.

5. They thought BD did not have the best program.

6.. They thought BD did not have the best performance.

7. They think the whole thing is fixed and BD buys off the judges.

8. They were not entertained by BD as much as other corps.

9. They are tired of BD winning.

10. Their friends are booing.

...I can keep going.

I think 1 is the smallest fraction (and I think it's far smaller than the others).

[ApathyJones]

First this is a false dichotomy. There are more than two alternatives. And your choices aren't even really a dichotomy anyway :-\

Fans disagree with judges because:

1. They hate BD.

2. They are CC diehards.

3. They thought the CC show more effective than the BD.

4. They were entertained more by CC.

5. They thought BD did not have the best program.

6.. They thought BD did not have the best performance.

7. They think the whole thing is fixed and BD buys off the judges.

8. They were not entertained by BD as much as other corps.

9. They are tired of BD winning.

10. Their friends are booing.

...I can keep going.

I think 1 is the smallest fraction (and I think it's far smaller than the others).

There are only 2 real options which I posted. Your list just breaks down the second option into smaller chunks. People booing are either

A) Booing the judging because they are themselves more proficient judges than the ones on the field and in the pressbox and the booing is because the judges are actually getting it wrong based on the sheets and judging criteria

or

B) Some other reason that is based on personal opinion, peer pressure, ignorance, or spite that you broke down into a nice list.

You helped prove my point. People can say they are booing the judges, but in reality unless they fall into group A above, then they are REALLY using that as an excuse to boo for one or more of the many reasons that are all subjective that you posted that fall into category B

[corpsband]

There are only 2 real options which I posted. Your list just breaks down the second option into smaller chunks. People booing are either

A) Booing the judging because they are themselves more proficient judges than the ones on the field and in the pressbox and the booing is because the judges are actually getting it wrong based on the sheets and judging criteria

or

B) Some other reason that is based on personal opinion, peer pressure, ignorance, or spite that you broke down into a nice list.

You helped prove my point. People can say they are booing the judges, but in reality unless they fall into group A above, then they are REALLY using that as an excuse to boo for one or more of the many reasons that are all subjective that you posted that fall into category B

Well you can keep trying to make it an either/or all you like but you're wrong.

A fan who boo's because they like another show more is far different than a fan who is booing because they genuinely hate the BD. By trying to lump them all into an excuse is just YOU opining that's there's only one valid reason for booing a score (the judge made a mistake). In reality ALL the booing is just a difference of opinion. Even the judges scores are merely opinions -- there's no science or measurement behind their number -- it's just their subjective assessment of young people running around a football field.

Edited July 29, 2012 by corpsband

[OrlandoContraAlum]

This statement makes me laugh. You're saying that if I'm at a 9 hour event, and I tell the person I'm with that I'm going to the bathroom, that makes me classless??? The judgement in this statement astounds me.

I'm always amazed by the 'black and white thinking', mind reading, blatant rudeness and lack of respect for others that I see on this board. Apparently if others disagree with my opinion they are horrible idiots who are going to hell. :-).

I enjoy drum corps. I'm a fan. I never marched with a corps ( although I marched trumpet for 10 years in high school and college bands). The first DCI show I remember attending was maybe 1979 in Birmingham, so I've been a fan for a long time. But I can't tell you what Phantom's final score was in 1981. I don't know who was 7th place in 1992. I don't even know what a kick halt is! That doesn't mean I don't have opinions and that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to have opinions that differ from others. And THAT doesn't make me a horrible person.

I didn't boo out loud last night. But I WAS disappointed with the placements. As a more casual fan than most others on this board, I couldn't tell you which drumline scored higher or which color guard was cleaner from a technical sense. I know which performances I enjoyed most, which ones gave me the good kind of chills, and which ones moved me to tears (in a good way!) :-) And although I like BD's 2012 show WAAAY more than the 2011 show, it still wasn't my favorite of those I saw last night.

According to some folks here, that statement would be akin to 'booing the kids'. It is not. Just because I like someone else more doesn't mean I don't respect and appreciate the talent, skill and hard work of others.

Just because I like Sauvignon Blanc MORE than I like Pinot Grigio doesn't mean I don't like them both. ;-)

This is an OPINION. It is mine. No one has to agree with it. :-)

And can someone please tell me what a kick halt is? :-)

Thanks!

Nope, it's all in context. FlamMan has repeatedly pointed out how he dislikes this year's BD show. I have seen people, "fans" in the stands, express pretty openly their opinion about a corps that they don't like. If I were at a show and someone made a big deal of going to the bathroom or getting a hot dog, or whatever, I would call them out on it, if it's obvious that they don't like a show and are leaving because of that. Don't like a show? Fine, totally fine, totally your prerogative. Being obnoxious when you get up to leave (and therefore attracting attention to yourself in doing so) = classless. And if you do attract that attention, don't be surprised if someone in attendance calls you out for being a tool.

Don't act like it doesn't happen. It does. I have seen it. And when it happens, it's classless.

ETA: By the way, I agree with pretty much everything else in your post... I just hate when "fans" feel that they have to let everyone around them know that they don't like a particular corps.

Edited July 29, 2012 by OrlandoContraAlum

[ApathyJones]

Well you can keep trying to make it an either/or all you like but you're wrong.

A fan who boo's because they like another show more is far different than a fan who is booing because they genuinely hate the BD. By trying to lump them all into an excuse is just YOU opining that's there's only one valid reason for booing a score (the judge made a mistake). In reality ALL the booing is just a difference of opinion. Even the judges scores are merely opinions -- there's no science or measurement behind their number -- it's just their subjective assessment of young people running around a football field.

I was referring specifically to people saying that they weren't booing the performers, they were booing the poor judging.