Sex offenders being involved with drum corps

[BigW]

How productive is this line of conversation to the activity as a whole?

Dan-- what if the answer, and I say if, please note- is that there is no policy? Of course, the people who asked DCA and DCI or any corps directly would then post here that they received no answer. We're back to square one. It might look even worse.

Again, we central PA prople have been Sanduskied to the extreme- People were evidently asking questions about him, and people were afraid to speak up for many years. In the meantime, he used his position and the fact PSU buried its head in the sand to run wild.

It is a good thing to talk about this. Before Sandusky, I'm sure this subject might have been brought up on some youth sports forum online and someone there would have said the same. Frank and open comversation is good, Dan. Extremely unsettling, but still good. Again, predators rely and feed on fear and silence to operate in. Shedding light anywhere makes it harder for them to function and prey. I don't enjoy the subject nor discussing this- but as someone with an education degree that went into the profession to make kids' lives better and to provide them with the enriching experiences that I had in music when I was their age-- I find this very important to myself to talk about. Others here do as well for I think much the same reasons. I view speaking up as something that is right and important to do. Jim and others are also on the same page. The conversation's been very civial, and I think everyone is sincere and thoughful.

As for our resident libertarian, the gent who is NOT Dan... I've heard the stories about the squatter's camp under the bridge in Florida, so on and so forth. I have a feeling someone's been passing you a line on the issue you've been chewing on to the sinker. Much like Sandusky told people that it was just fine to shower with the kids and he was teaching them personal hygiene. I really don't think diving off rural I-66 in the middle of the night to relieve one's self in an emergency will get you onto a predator list. Find me a case, please.

The reason that the lists have been done is, and this is my opinion and mine only- the sentences are relatively lenient, (Sandusky only got 30-to-60 for 45 counts, do the math....) and after they're served, the potential for recidivism is very, very high. Either we have the lists, and hope this deters the behavior, or we lock them up for life, and then listen to people screaming about THAT injustice. Give me a better answer other than doing nothing at all and letting these people operate enabled, free, unfettered, and potentially capable of damaging more lives in the meantime, huh? And I am a pretty right wing person talking here, by the way.....

[JimF-LowBari]

Has anyone here ever examined just how easy it is to get on the sex offender list? I know people that ended up on the list for, "Public indecency." I wouldn't presume to speak for everyone here, but I know I've ###### on my share of trees\wood lines during my drum corps career when porta-johns weren't available. Something as innocuous as pissing on a tree can get you on a list in the same company as a serial rapist! My inner libertarian questions the constitutionality of even having a public listing of sex offenders but that is probably a debate for another time. I would encourage you to stop reacting emotionally and start thinking logically.

Reason why the buddy system is mandated for working with youth. IOW - never, never, ####### EVER is it one adult with one youth as another witness stops the he said-he said line of accusations.

Please let me know when whizzing somewhere led to being put on the list. Details of the "public indencecy" go a long way on why a person is on the list. Let's just say that P.I. is more than taking a leak.....

Let's see logical thinking.... know of four people on the PA Megans list for offenders:

1) Mentally impared guy who ended up in a he said-she said situation when he was accused of "something" (never found out) but he was off his meds and and can't remember.

2) Lazy ###ed distant relative who we can guess what happened but still don't trust him near kids without supervision.

3) Guy in my building who acted squirrelly but seemed harmless. Know details and makes me puke.

4) The only one marked "VIOLENT OFFENDER". Late middle age, IT professional, long term employement, 3 piece suit, whole 9 yards. Worked with him for years and met the victim at the movies one time. Scariest one of all as be the last one you'd guess.

Edit possible #5: Was a great shot of a local alledged (not up for trial yet) pedophile being taken out of his house by the cops. Great shot because you could see MY house right behind it. If that's being emotional by wanting to know what hazards are within a stones throw on my house I don't give a #### (and we don't even have kids).

Edited October 15, 2012 by JimF-LowBari

[Scerpella]

which is completely unacceptable,..................

fair enough, then how do we deal with others in our activity who have prior criminal records other than sex related? We know theyre there. Perhaps its time to come up with a policy the deals with all of it.

And while we are at it, how do members in DCA corps deal with activity currently going on which is known to be unlawful, such as smoking weed?

Edited October 15, 2012 by Scerpella

[TomPeashey]

1st... what I'm going to say applies only to all aged corps... DCI as it is a youth organization is another bag of worms...

normal caviat... speaking for myself, have no particular info, just years of experience yadda yadda

DCA is a loose organization of all aged drum corps... it's purpose is to provide rules, judges, assist in finding show sponsors and run an annual championship... It has been serving these purposes well since 1964 (Having been founded in 1963 and the first championship was 1965) - we have almost 50 years successful track record to look at.

Anything to do with this previous discussion is UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL CORPS... DCA is not the catch all to be the policeman... Each corps - if they allow members under 18 - should have a policy which protects those members... period... by definition... all ages allowed... DCA leaves it up to each individual corps to set any or no age limits... they vary considerably from corps to corps... for instance - when I was corps director - we had a strict no one under 18 rule... but as director, I had the freedom to waive that rule if there was an over 18 member of the family involved with the corps to take responsibility for the youth... I took this rule very seriously... in every under 18 instance, the parent was also marching and was the responsible party...

which begs the question... since we did have under 18, would I have allowed anyone on the sex offender list to participate in any way - NO NO NO NO NO NO

but that was up to me and my corps..... that is how I understand it is now....

and before anyone says - but they just KO'd Renegades... totally different thing... damage to a hotel at championships is absolutely detremental to the overall organization and definitely something the contest committee must deal with and is within their prescribed area of expertise... they did... end of story...

So bottom line, if you find that any corps accepts under 18's and wish to question that corps as to their policy - knock yourself out but let's stop dragging dca into this... that's just not the way all aged corps work...

As for the sex offender list? Times change... entire societies change... it is impossible to argue against anything that protects children - especially since it is now very well documented that most REAL sex criminals are NOT capable of being rehabilitated... That being said, the case that caused all this bruhaha is one I'm familiar with... That person is despicable (in my opinion) and I would never hire him to teach my drum corps because like a teacher who has sex with a student - he violated that sacred trust and can NEVER be fully forgiven.

Now having said that - it was twenty freakin' years ago... while we can argue that a 15 year old can not consent - the fact is it was consentual sex, what we call statuatory rape... Yes it was a serious violation and the worst case of poor judgement, but he served his penalty - it is not like he's about to do that again or is not capable of rehabilitation... so there are sex crimes and there are sex crimes... frankly, what this person has to go through for the rest of his life, I find a bit much considering the facts of the case... but... like I said, the laws protect children - if you screw up bad enough and get included... tough!

and... before some of you who are on your high horses about all this looking for "legislation" and whatever to correct what you perceive to be an unforgiveable situation... I can name some VERY big superstars in this very activity who - if the laws were the same then as now - would also be on the sex offenders list for having been caught having consentual sex with minor students... To our shame, we had a very bad habit of sweeping that stuff under the table to avoid any possible scandal that would have a worse effect on the child than the consentual sex did... I only wonder if that problem has been fixed but corrected to the extreme?

FINALLY, after 60 years of working in this activity - in both junior and all aged corps - in every capacity, performer, instructor, judge, corps management, circuit management - I feel I have the knowledge and experience to say that this activity is cleaner and safer than most... and the refusal of you guys to let go of this is causing a trail for google to follow that tells parents "drum corps is NOT safe for my child" - SHAME ON YOU PEOPLE... drum corps is far safer than gymnastics... far safer than cheerleading... far safer than the boy scouts, and heaven forbid one darn sight safer than having your child become an alter boy...

IF YOU'RE a potential parent reading this... trust me, this is a wonderful and safe activity for your child... It was good for my parents, it was good for me and my brothers, it was great for my children and I suspect it will be great for my grandchildren - 3 of whom started musical instruments this year as 9 year olds and I suspect with their parentage, they too will eventually be involved... you see in the end, it's only human nature... your children will tend to love what you loved... it worked in 2 out of 3 kids for me and I suspect I'll get to watch some of my grandchildren thrive in the activity...

I respectfully ask the DCP guardians to consider closing this thread as against their policy and not in the best interest of drum and bugle corps.

[JimF-LowBari]

Anything to do with this previous discussion is UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL CORPS... DCA is not the catch all to be the policeman... Each corps - if they allow members under 18 - should have a policy which protects those members... period... by definition... all ages allowed... DCA leaves it up to each individual corps to set any or no age limits... they vary considerably from corps to corps...

Tom, have problems with this as sounds like DCA is washing it's hands by saying it's only the corps responsibility. So if someone informs DCA of a possible safety issue the answer would be "Not my job - call the corps."? Just sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen and that's based on the sessions I had with my church policy mtgs and yearly Govt training. Can just picture the testimony:

"Did you call the corps about the preditor"

"Yes - they told me it's none of my business"

"Did you call the head organization (DCA)"

"Yes - they said it wasn't their job".

Even if DCA is found blameless you could imagine the results.

For something like this DCA should change it's policy to force corps to remove potentially unsafe people. I just keep hearing the line "if management is aware of sexual harrassment and does nothing they can be held liable". If someone pushes DCA = management and makes it stick it could be the end of DCA.

As you said:

Times change... entire societies change...

Policy also needs to change for protection of members, corps and DCA itself...

Edit: Can't think of anyway to make this post more respectful. Just can't impress my feelings that DCA needs to be more pro-active for everyones sake. Just shaking my head that what ever happened with the Renegades was important enough that DCA took action but members protection isn't important enough to get involved??????

Edited October 15, 2012 by JimF-LowBari

[MikeN]

1st... what I'm going to say applies only to all aged corps... DCI as it is a youth organization is another bag of worms...

Sorry, I -1'd you when trying to +1 you. Didn't want you to think I was booing when I was Blooing.

Mike

[Jeff Ream]

Really guys?

How productive is this line of conversation to the activity as a whole?

If you have a question about DCI or DCA policy why don't you contact them directly and get an answer straight from the horse's mouth? Let's leave it off a public forum though.

Dan

well keep buring your head in the sand, then if your son or daughter has an incident, don't come crying on here because other people tried to make an issue of it

[Jeff Ream]

Has anyone here ever examined just how easy it is to get on the sex offender list? I know people that ended up on the list for, "Public indecency." I wouldn't presume to speak for everyone here, but I know I've ###### on my share of trees\wood lines during my drum corps career when porta-johns weren't available. Something as innocuous as pissing on a tree can get you on a list in the same company as a serial rapist! My inner libertarian questions the constitutionality of even having a public listing of sex offenders but that is probably a debate for another time. I would encourage you to stop reacting emotionally and start thinking logically.

no offense, but someone nailed for ####### kids doesn't belong in drum corps. and if you're dumb enough to #### on a tree and get busted for it, you deserve it.

[Jeff Ream]

1st... what I'm going to say applies only to all aged corps... DCI as it is a youth organization is another bag of worms...

normal caviat... speaking for myself, have no particular info, just years of experience yadda yadda

DCA is a loose organization of all aged drum corps... it's purpose is to provide rules, judges, assist in finding show sponsors and run an annual championship... It has been serving these purposes well since 1964 (Having been founded in 1963 and the first championship was 1965) - we have almost 50 years successful track record to look at.

Anything to do with this previous discussion is UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL CORPS... DCA is not the catch all to be the policeman... Each corps - if they allow members under 18 - should have a policy which protects those members... period... by definition... all ages allowed... DCA leaves it up to each individual corps to set any or no age limits... they vary considerably from corps to corps... for instance - when I was corps director - we had a strict no one under 18 rule... but as director, I had the freedom to waive that rule if there was an over 18 member of the family involved with the corps to take responsibility for the youth... I took this rule very seriously... in every under 18 instance, the parent was also marching and was the responsible party...

which begs the question... since we did have under 18, would I have allowed anyone on the sex offender list to participate in any way - NO NO NO NO NO NO

but that was up to me and my corps..... that is how I understand it is now....

and before anyone says - but they just KO'd Renegades... totally different thing... damage to a hotel at championships is absolutely detremental to the overall organization and definitely something the contest committee must deal with and is within their prescribed area of expertise... they did... end of story...

So bottom line, if you find that any corps accepts under 18's and wish to question that corps as to their policy - knock yourself out but let's stop dragging dca into this... that's just not the way all aged corps work...

As for the sex offender list? Times change... entire societies change... it is impossible to argue against anything that protects children - especially since it is now very well documented that most REAL sex criminals are NOT capable of being rehabilitated... That being said, the case that caused all this bruhaha is one I'm familiar with... That person is despicable (in my opinion) and I would never hire him to teach my drum corps because like a teacher who has sex with a student - he violated that sacred trust and can NEVER be fully forgiven.

Now having said that - it was twenty freakin' years ago... while we can argue that a 15 year old can not consent - the fact is it was consentual sex, what we call statuatory rape... Yes it was a serious violation and the worst case of poor judgement, but he served his penalty - it is not like he's about to do that again or is not capable of rehabilitation... so there are sex crimes and there are sex crimes... frankly, what this person has to go through for the rest of his life, I find a bit much considering the facts of the case... but... like I said, the laws protect children - if you screw up bad enough and get included... tough!

and... before some of you who are on your high horses about all this looking for "legislation" and whatever to correct what you perceive to be an unforgiveable situation... I can name some VERY big superstars in this very activity who - if the laws were the same then as now - would also be on the sex offenders list for having been caught having consentual sex with minor students... To our shame, we had a very bad habit of sweeping that stuff under the table to avoid any possible scandal that would have a worse effect on the child than the consentual sex did... I only wonder if that problem has been fixed but corrected to the extreme?

FINALLY, after 60 years of working in this activity - in both junior and all aged corps - in every capacity, performer, instructor, judge, corps management, circuit management - I feel I have the knowledge and experience to say that this activity is cleaner and safer than most... and the refusal of you guys to let go of this is causing a trail for google to follow that tells parents "drum corps is NOT safe for my child" - SHAME ON YOU PEOPLE... drum corps is far safer than gymnastics... far safer than cheerleading... far safer than the boy scouts, and heaven forbid one darn sight safer than having your child become an alter boy...

IF YOU'RE a potential parent reading this... trust me, this is a wonderful and safe activity for your child... It was good for my parents, it was good for me and my brothers, it was great for my children and I suspect it will be great for my grandchildren - 3 of whom started musical instruments this year as 9 year olds and I suspect with their parentage, they too will eventually be involved... you see in the end, it's only human nature... your children will tend to love what you loved... it worked in 2 out of 3 kids for me and I suspect I'll get to watch some of my grandchildren thrive in the activity...

I respectfully ask the DCP guardians to consider closing this thread as against their policy and not in the best interest of drum and bugle corps.

no offense, but in today's litigious society, by DCA allowing that corps and member in, they are opening up their ### to potentially being tied into lawsuits....let's say things happen with a member of two different corps at a DCA event?

DCA MUST have a policy on this Tom, as does WGI and DCI. As DCA continues to get younger, there's going to come a day where it blows up on them in a big way

[cmhs59]

far safer than the boy scouts, and heaven forbid one darn sight safer than having your child become an alter boy...

The Boy Scouts are the perfect example of an organization trying to keep sexual preditors out. They have lost massive donations because of this stance.

Quite a slam on "alter" boys. How about "alter" girls? I'll pray for you at the ALTAR next Sunday, Tom. (HA!) I'm the last one to deny that the Catholic Church hasn't caused a lot of grief. But I do believe drum corps (or is that "corpse") have caused some grief, also. It's because of "deep pockets" that the Church gets sued as much as it does.

It will be a real shame if this spins out of control and causes the demise of drum corps as we know it. I just wish both parties would come clean and tell us all what really happened. Period. Until that happens--the rumors will make a bad situation worse.