What will help DCI become more entertaining

[Jeff Ream]

Exactly: if nothing else recent history has kinda proven that to win DCI Championships a corps has to be well-balanced - high achieving in visual AND music.

you have to admit that visual demand is discussed all the time on music tapes and rarely if ever is musical demand taken into account on visual tapes.

and color guard does get mentioned on ge music tapes when you talk about audio to visual coordination. I remember hearing that on one of the years the GE tapes were on thedvds.

[flammaster]

1366238333[/url]' post='3257511']

you have to admit that visual demand is discussed all the time on music tapes and rarely if ever is musical demand taken into account on visual tapes.

and color guard does get mentioned on ge music tapes when you talk about audio to visual coordination. I remember hearing that on one of the years the GE tapes were on thedvds.

Interesting point. I did not know this. Thanks for mentioning it.

[bill]

Exactly: if nothing else recent history has kinda proven that to win DCI Championships a corps has to be well-balanced - high achieving in visual AND music.

So apparently being proficient in pool (8 ball, 9 ball, or straight pool) doesn't count any longer? $hlt. :sad:/>

[MikeD]

you have to admit that visual demand is discussed all the time on music tapes and rarely if ever is musical demand taken into account on visual tapes.

It is perfectly valid as a music performance judge to talk about how the physical demands placed on the individual marching member create heightened music demand.

Having heard visual-oriented judges try and talk about music effect at USBands shows, where effect is of the overall variety...corps should be happy the reverse is not happening!

and color guard does get mentioned on ge music tapes when you talk about audio to visual coordination. I remember hearing that on one of the years the GE tapes were on thedvds.

Well, that is also valid. Talking about how the visual side of things coordinates with the music to bring out the most effective presentation of the music is absolutely the right thing to do. How could they not do that?

[Jeff Ream]

It is perfectly valid as a music performance judge to talk about how the physical demands placed on the individual marching member create heightened music demand.

Having heard visual-oriented judges try and talk about music effect at USBands shows, where effect is of the overall variety...corps should be happy the reverse is not happening!

Well, that is also valid. Talking about how the visual side of things coordinates with the music to bring out the most effective presentation of the music is absolutely the right thing to do. How could they not do that?

I'm not just talking music effect Mike. There could be musical demands on the other visual sheets that could cause a performer to not hit the form, etc...you never hear credit for it. But I'll tell you this...you dont mention physical or listening demands on a music tape, your ### is grass. it's to the point where "music" tapes can be over 50% visual. That's out of balance

[MikeD]

I'm not just talking music effect Mike. There could be musical demands on the other visual sheets that could cause a performer to not hit the form, etc...you never hear credit for it.

I was using the GE comment as an example of why I really don't want to have visual judges not ever try and discuss music, in any format. Visual judges making music comments in effect has been bad enough; I shudder at the thought of them trying to evaluate music charts as to their intricacy as it relates to the visual performance caption. It is just not a two-way street in skill sets, from my experience (with some notable exceptions).

But I'll tell you this...you dont mention physical or listening demands on a music tape, your ### is grass. it's to the point where "music" tapes can be over 50% visual. That's out of balance

I have heard some of the tapes online, and they have been nowhere close to "50% visual". Corps staffs have the opportunity to report judges I believe, and if enough comments on overweighting an area come in, I would hope that the DCI caption heads would be discussing that with the judge(s) being reported.

[Drillwatcher]

I was using the GE comment as an example of why I really don't want to have visual judges not ever try and discuss music, in any format. Visual judges making music comments in effect has been bad enough; I shudder at the thought of them trying to evaluate music charts as to their intricacy as it relates to the visual performance caption. It is just not a two-way street in skill sets, from my experience (with some notable exceptions).

I have heard some of the tapes online, and they have been nowhere close to "50% visual". Corps staffs have the opportunity to report judges I believe, and if enough comments on overweighting an area come in, I would hope that the DCI caption heads would be discussing that with the judge(s) being reported.

Having taught for several years you blanket statement is not accurate. We received tapes from Bret Mascaro, Nola Jones, Ed Warren and Dan Smith that did an good job of recogizing and commenting on music demands and how they impacted visual. The comments I believe people are talking about are the Squirrel effects that many music judges feel they are qualified to comment on. You also have lots of comments from "visual" judges that make you think there are 4 guard judges. The concern of the influence on music is valid but is a symptom. Put about 3/4 of the WGI visual judges in front of a drill paper and see what you get. The idea of being wholistic has been lost.

[MikeD]

Having taught for several years you blanket statement is not accurate. We received tapes from Bret Mascaro, Nola Jones, Ed Warren and Dan Smith that did an good job of recogizing and commenting on music demands and how they impacted visual. The comments I believe people are talking about are the Squirrel effects that many music judges feel they are qualified to comment on. You also have lots of comments from "visual" judges that make you think there are 4 guard judges. The concern of the influence on music is valid but is a symptom. Put about 3/4 of the WGI visual judges in front of a drill paper and see what you get. The idea of being wholistic has been lost.

Note I added the 'notable exceptions'...there are a few I have heard that did a good job. But for most of the ones I have heard, they are the exception and not the rule. To each their own opinion.

[Pete Freedman]

Well, this all convinces me that the artistic direction of DCI corps is pretty healthy. Some thoughts:

1. All the "uniforms" are costumes and always were. Drum corps are not actually little armies. They just dress up like armies to do a show. When the show has nothing to do with the military, the military costume is not appropriate. Neither are the rifles, by the way. So why do they dress up like armies? Because that's what the VFW, AL, etc. organizations that created the activity wanted. So it's not surprising that it's slowly going away now. (I do agree that Crown's costume is too generic and lacks, um, soul?)

2. After wondering why several folks seemed to agree that the emphasis on visual is too high, I now realize that what you mean is is that the music judges take the drill difficulty into effect, while the visual judges are less likely to take music difficulty into effect. This does sound like a real problem, because music judges did do drill at some point (assuming they marched), while the visual judges didn't necessarily do music, so they would feel reluctant to assess the difficulty there. However, there's a mitigating factor: Visual judges are splitting their attention between the guard and the ensemble, and so for much of the time the music isn't relevant to their assessments. That's clearly part of the reason they're not mentioning it much. You can't compare that to the music judges, who are limiting their assessment to musicians who are in fact doing drill almost all of the time. Still, you're making a valid point, I just think it's being blown up into a "the problem with drum corps today" crisis.

3. The Cavaliers show from 2012 was scoring low - for them - on essentially all captions throughout the season, as far as I can tell. 7/11 in Bowling Green they were 7-8 points behind Carolina Crown and came 3rd (behind Crown and BlueCoats) in every single subcaption. That's a disaster. My take on their show was that the members might have looked up Andy Warhol's art on the internet and couldn't figure out what their show had to do with it. I sure couldn't. Perhaps this sapped their enthusiasm (an essential ingredient to success). This is speculative, of course. Actually, the show concept screamed for the guard to wear the iconic Cavaliers ensemble uniform but in the alternating garish color scheme Warhol liked to use, (i.e. different colors assigned to the same parts in different members uniforms). Not just the pants in "Warhol blue" and the rest of the outfit just ... strange. And strange haircuts. Have any 2012 Cavvie's post-mortem'ed the show on DCP?

[Fred Windish]

Pete, it is true the activity had its roots in military. Beyond that, drum corps is a TEAM activity. I have no problem with the majority of the clothing being a match. Not sure how I would understand Alabama football versus Ole Miss if everyone did their own thing with attire!

My problem is with the accessibility of the shows. It's still too "unemotional" for the majority of potential audience members. The overall appeal is much too limited.