GUARDLING Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Exactly, you understand. There is no end game; just a bumbling, fumbling, stumbling attempt at what? That is what I do not get. What's the real upside? Who is going to benefit? If the idea were TRULY to get more students involved, the first order of business would be a real discussion of the amazingly expensive burden placed on the members and families. But as long as there are long lines of kids and parents willing to pump life into the drum corps machine. The Drum Corps Mentality of overcome at all costs gets used against us all to often. Believe me...I know, I got stories. I want to address your thoughts on cost.........is it expensive...sure is.....would i want to pay it...hell no........does it exclude many...yes I think people need to look at why. Everything cost more today? drum corps doesnt service the same kid as the past? corps arent local because there isnt local support like the past? Is it no more expensive than cheerleading or baseball camps? Does it actually cost more to keep yur kid home for the summer? Is it actually to much money considering they have food, lodging, transportation, instruction, etc etc 24/7 for almost 3 months? Just a thought...people can answer for themselves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amil Muzz Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 I want to address your thoughts on cost.........is it expensive...sure is.....would i want to pay it...hell no........does it exclude many...yes I think people need to look at why. Everything cost more today? drum corps doesnt service the same kid as the past? corps arent local because there isnt local support like the past? Is it no more expensive than cheerleading or baseball camps? Does it actually cost more to keep yur kid home for the summer? Is it actually to much money considering they have food, lodging, transportation, instruction, etc etc 24/7 for almost 3 months? Just a thought...people can answer for themselves Those are all valid questions. But none of those address the central question I am raising. What is the end game? What is the goal? Why does drum corps exist? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1223 Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 (edited) I will ask you. What's the end game, here? What defines the success of the vision? Is it artistic? Is it financial? Is it the creation of new groups? Is it bringing new people into the DCI thing? Well, I think the end game should be for DCI to be more heavily invested in marching bands and music education. Adding all brass and woodwinds makes this possible in the future but this is really more about the long run goal than the short run. Thats not to say that I don't think "pure" drum corps shouldn't exist but I think this goal is only possible if the best in the world are legitimate marching bands that allow any and all instruments. It doesn't even have to be DCI that does it but i think that there are hundreds of thousands of students in band but nothing really centralized corralling, promoting, educating or endorsing them besides band circuits who do little but host competitions. It's not enough. The divides between corps, band, orchestra, wind, choral, dance, color guard etc. make the Arts weak and DCI is really the only activity that could bring it all together strengthen it and give it a powerful comeback and reorganization nation wide....... I mean if there is any symptom that the arts are in trouble its evident here. That people start flame wars and threatening to abandon an activity because we add a trombone. That's why the Arts struggle and THAT is "sad". Its about the music, not instrumentation. Edited February 11, 2014 by charlie1223 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 (edited) Those are all valid questions. But none of those address the central question I am raising. What is the end game? What is the goal? Why does drum corps exist? i'll let others discuss that only because unless someone here actually sits on the inside it could be just speculation. I only brought cost up because you mentioned it. Lastly on that though , i do think its crazy expensive BUT I also think even a local show is crazy expensive to which others say well look what you pay for a Broadway show or even a movie today, so i just brought up maybe its not so expensive with what one gets for the money....guess that's a personal choice and decision Edited February 11, 2014 by GUARDLING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Well, I think the end game should be for DCI to be more heavily invested in marching bands and music education. Adding all brass and woodwinds makes this possible in the future but this is really more about the long run goal than the short run. That's not to say that I don't think "pure" drum corps shouldn't exist but I think this goal is only possible if the best in the world are legitimate marching bands that allow any and all instruments. It doesn't even have to be DCI that does it but i think that there are hundreds of thousands of students in band but nothing really centralized corralling, promoting, educating or endorsing them besides band circuits who do little but host competitions. It's not enough. The divides between corps, band, orchestra, wind, choral, dance, color guard etc. make the arts weak and DCI is really the only activity that could bring it all together, strengthen it, and give it a powerful comeback and reorganization nation wide. Could DCI ever make much use of woodwinds beyond miking a handful of miked soloists? A major appeal of drum corps as opposed to marching bands is power. Even the top BOA bands with 250+ members can't achieve that power, because half their instruments can only be clearly heard when the other half play very softly, and preferably when standing still. In which case it will do DCI very little good in terms of increased membership to add woodwinds--and if corps can accommodate only a few woodwind players, it won't generate that much goodwill in scholastic band programs either. But I would have said the same of allowing synthesizers, trombones, or French horns. Synthesizers allowed corps to add one or two new keyboardists each--possibly at the expense of a brass or percussion player, since membership wasn't raised from 150 to 152. French horns surely will not march. Only trombones have any chance of being used in serious numbers, but it's far from certain that the half-dozen baritone players bumped from each corps who takes on the same number of trombonists instead are going to switch to other corps who could use them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amil Muzz Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Well, I think the end game should be for DCI to be more heavily invested in marching bands and music education. Adding all brass and woodwinds makes this possible in the future but this is really more about the long run goal than the short run. Thats not to say that I don't think "pure" drum corps shouldn't exist but I think this goal is only possible if the best in the world are legitimate marching bands that allow any and all instruments. It doesn't even have to be DCI that does it but i think that there are hundreds of thousands of students in band but nothing really centralized corralling, promoting, educating or endorsing them besides band circuits. The divides between corps, band, orchestra, wind, choral, dance, color guard etc. make the Arts weak and DCI is really the only activity that could bring it all together strengthen it and give it a powerful comeback and reorganization nation wide....... I mean if there is any symptom that the arts are in trouble its evident here. That people start flame wars because we add a trombone. That's why the Arts struggle. Its about the music, not instrumentation. Fair enough. If I am reading this right," The divides between corps, band, orchestra, wind, choral, dance, color guard etc. make the Arts weak and DCI is really the only activity that could bring it all together strengthen it and give it a powerful comeback and reorganization nation wide......." Because people have passionate opinions shouldn't be a weakness. It should be a strength. DCI was not founded to be a support organization for the Arts in general, it was meant to give drum corps control over their own activity. Make their own rules, promote their own show, and control its own business. I sat in Jim Jones house in Casper, Wyoming one night and he told me the whole story, because I think he knew I was a lifer. It seems you are making the argument that DCI needs to expand its mission in a large, large way. It is a nice ideal you lay out here. But lets apply it to other arts forms. Would visual artist want to be told to paint from the same palette? Produce art in the mediums? Artists who use charcoals and not pastels makes art weak. The divides between sculptors, cubists, realists, glass blowers, ice sculptors, and surrealists just make art weak. It is about the art and not the medium. I marched in and continue to work in the drum corps activity because I am passionate about the sound of brass and percussion. I teach band as well. But for me, my passion is brass and percussion, thats why I leave home every year for the last 30 years and do it. I love drum corps. If I wanted to teach band all summer I would stay home, make more money, and not put myself through the punishment of touring. It is personal to me. When it is personal, it is going to get passionate. Nothing wrong with that. I like the sounds of good bands, and good choirs, and good orchestras, and good drum corps. I just do not accept the premise that for drum corps to survive it needs to become a homogenous marching band activity. I get it. That is the trend. I just think we would be losing a unique performance/audience experience. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 What's the end game, here? What defines the success of the vision? Is it artistic? Is it financial? Is it the creation of new groups? Is it bringing new people into the DCI thing? Who knows ? I don't get the sense that even DCI knows. Do they have a 10 year plan ? A 20 year plan ? A vision for their future ? A roadmap on how to get there ? Maybe they do, but it sure as heck hasn't been articulated to the public, thats for sure. This is why we have what was referred to on another thread as "tinfoil hat" conspiracy theories - because the alternative (that there is no plan) is even harder for some to believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 (edited) Its about the music, not instrumentation. And others say it's the experience and not the instruments. Problem is how do you sell experience and "best of the best" to people when all they can see (or care to see) is: group with x set of instruments = group with x set of instruments...... IOW - how much musical expertice do you need to be able to pick out a DC is doing a show better than a MB.... especially when they don't know (or care) the amount of time/effort corps put in as compared to MB. Edited February 11, 2014 by JimF-LowBari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Well, I think the end game should be for DCI to be more heavily invested in marching bands and music education. Adding all brass and woodwinds makes this possible in the future but this is really more about the long run goal than the short run. Thats not to say that I don't think "pure" drum corps shouldn't exist but I think this goal is only possible if the best in the world are legitimate marching bands that allow any and all instruments. It doesn't even have to be DCI that does it but i think that there are hundreds of thousands of students in band but nothing really centralized corralling, promoting, educating or endorsing them besides band circuits who do little but host competitions. It's not enough. So you have never heard of Music for All? You should look them up. Music for All is exactly what you describe - a centralized organization that promotes music education with numerous specific programs, of which the Bands of America circuit is just one. So why should DCI go in that direction? How would that help centralize the effort, to have DCI and MFA competing for the same role? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 I like the sounds of good bands, and good choirs, and good orchestras, and good drum corps. I just do not accept the premise that for drum corps to survive it needs to become a homogenous marching band activity. I get it. That is the trend. I just think we would be losing a unique performance/audience experience. It is more than that. There are reasons for drum corps and marching band to be different. Scholastic marching band prioritizes education over entertainment, and by definition employs whatever instrumentation "band" already uses. For the sake of being inclusive, the path of least resistance for marching band is to use the same kids on the same instruments they already play year round. Drum corps, in contrast, has no formal affiliation to pre-existing groups, and no obligation to be inclusive to their instrumentation. Drum corps developed their own take on field music. Faced with the need for self-funding, drum corps had to either adopt a more cost-conscious approach, or seek financial support for their pursuits, often in the form of a paying audience. Therefore, for many decades, instrument choices were based on what was most appropriate and effective for field use. Whether we continued to adhere to that principle over the past decade has been the subject of heated debate... but I digress. As long as drum corps remain independent, self-supporting groups, and scholastic bands remain scholastic, these principles do not change. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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