cixelsyd Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Honestly, I don't think you'll see a change, just as the entertainment caption in DCA has really had no change. That depends on who is judging. Honestly, as long as "entertainment" is judged by the exact same people who are currently judging "effect", you are probably correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 That depends on who is judging. Honestly, as long as "entertainment" is judged by the exact same people who are currently judging "effect", you are probably correct. if you go by crowd reaction, which is the only way to tell entertainment at the show, the corps that won the caption at DCA was not the most entertaining. In terms of cheering, the 2nd and 4th place corps got the loudest ovations. thats why gauging entertainment is so nebulous. While I was entertained by Bucs show on many levels, I could see many folks around me weren't. they wanted loud, fun, tunes they knew. Bucs didnt design that show. kinda like BD, everyone knew they were good, but excellence in and of itself is not entirely entertaining. and IMO, the sheet DCa uses makes the effect sheets look straight forward 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigW Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I think Jim Fawber is reading this thread and he can help out because the term "Clap show" is just before my time, but guys like him did some of them in RCA, and I think SDCA does them now. It's a derisive term that was used BITD for shows that were decided by audience applause or vote. I know we didn't want that BITD, nor would I think current people performing want it. "Entertainment" is a very nebulous and extremely open to interpretation term. Jeff points this out time and time again. There are great, powerful, and very emotional things that happen in shows that don't necessarily get the "Stand on the bleacher and lose my mind/SCV 2004/PR 2008" reaction. For instance, The Scouts closer in 2011. The emotions I got when I realized what the guard uniform change to white meant is still a very sad, poignant, powerful, and overwhelming emotion to me when I think about it. Was it powerful,absolutely. Was it a stand on the bleachers feeling? No. Can a judge get into the heads of the audience and know while they sit there silently that that's what they're all thinking? No. Can they *hope* the audience is feeling what they're feeling inside themselves emotionally? Certainly. The term "engagement" has been thrown around in the thread as well. The Reader's Digest version of that term in this activity is this: Does the program compel you to watch, gain your interest, want you to listen, see what happens next? Are you absorbed by the content? Or are you thinking about what restaurant you're hitting after the show and what beer you're gonna have when you get there, (Victory Hop Devil or a nice Russian Stout?) Jeff mentioned the Bucs- the show was very engaging, maybe not a show that got you freaking out, but was thoughtful, very well done, and certainly interesting. I wasn't left thinking what cut of steak I was gonna order when I watched them or whether I needed gas at the nearby Wawa after the show to make it back home. The idea that it just doesn't have to be the crowd reacting in overt ways to be exciting, engaging or entertaining has been around for well over 20 years now. I do believe you need to have at least a moment like that in the show, it certainly doesn't hurt. Emotions run a wide gamut. Until we can hook up brain ports to everyone and measure reactions to a program in that way and quantify them and determine they're because its their kid on the field or they hate that corps and don't want them to win or because they're the local kids and also quantify that- You're playing with serious fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flammaster Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 No - all captions are subjective. (And as Jeff Ream will be quick to point out, they were all subjective even under the tick system.) An evaluation of "entertainment" is therefore no more subjective than any other caption. I think the distinction we are dancing around is that an "entertainment" caption would not see the kind of predictable, consensus agreement from show to show that is obtained in other captions these days. And that scares some people. I totally agree! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 It is not that corps who go on early are ‘bad’. In fact, most ticket buyers who have actually went into the stadiums to watch corps like Jersey Surf and 7th Regiment are well pleased. The accountability of enticing more people in this day and age to hang out in the lot during the first half of the competition, instead of heading into the stands, is square on the shoulders of the top-corps. The staff and members of the top corps could on their Facebook pages, in their blogs, and face to face, promote the show, the competition, the other corps on the field, the activity itself but nope; instead they (on their Facebook pages, in their blogs, and in face to face encounters) tell people “Come see the real show before the show. Come see the only corps which matter up-close and personal in the lot; then follow us, the real show, into the stadium”. And unless one wants to be obtuse, there is no denying that this informal but actual promotion of ‘come see us in the lot while neglecting to see the early corps’ does exist... sad but true. never sad anyone was bad..and I dont think any pro mo on face book has anything to do with it...peak interest?...mmmmm...maybe....its whats is considered the best of the best that most are interested in seeing..right or wrong... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 (edited) First of all, that is not what I see at shows. What I see is that the first corps to perform generally sees about half the eventual peak audience, because people do not all arrive on time (work, traffic, etc.), and those who do cannot all get in on time through the entry gate bottleneck. The stands gradually fill quite a bit, then we have an intermission. Nearly everyone walks out to get food, souvies, visit the restroom, and so forth. The first corps on after intermission performs to less audience than the preceding corps, because of people not returning from intermission on time. The subsequent corps in that post-intermission block see the peak crowd because not only have all latecomers now arrived, but there are no longer any lot warmups competing for fan attention. It is like this at every evening show on the DCI tour. I know better than to judge the popularity of a corps early in the lineup or first on after intermission based on how many empty seats I see. But we are not talking about seats. The question was about tickets. Once someone buys that ticket, it is quite an extrapolation to guess at what compelled them to buy that ticket based on how they allocate their time while at the event. By that logic, I would guess that people pay admission to amusement parks primarily because they enjoy waiting in lines. The lot is free of charge, and thus really does say nothing at all about what sells tickets. as a few here who have marched OC they will tell you the same...Ive spent many many summers in every god for saken place in the country and this has been my experience and also what I believe DCI has observed. If they didnt believe me money talks . Just like WGI....WC certainly draws the people in BUT the bread and butter and where the money is in many forms is that little High School A class...they support WGI for sure and WGI figured out they better pay attention to that class because if they go there wont be any WGI as we know it. Also as far as getting to a show because of work...etc etc...believe me if BD, Cadets, Cavies, etc etc were on during the beginning of the show you would nt see any difference...people would find a way to get there early...and probably leave early. with another excuse for leaving....I have no doubt of this at all....JMO Edited February 19, 2014 by GUARDLING 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 (edited) Its sort of like the difference between the Academy and AFI awards (where its chosen by peers and experts) and the golden globe awards (where its chosen by the public...but experts really choose in the end anyway) A minor point of clarification: the film and television awards chosen by the public are the People's Choice awards. The Golden Globes are awarded by a much smaller group, the Hollywood Foreign Press Association. These are journalists who report on movies for overseas publications. Nominally they ought to be more knowledgeable than the public at large, but there is a sense that they can be swayed by superficial glitz ... or perhaps bribed. In 1992, Scent of a Woman won the best drama prize after the producers sent the HFPA members on an expensive junket. This surprise victory probably led to the film, generally considered to be only a middling remake of a mildly enjoyable but not particularly important 1970s Italian comedy, getting an Oscar nomination for best picture. I would say, I strongly disagree with such an asinine proposal. It would only dumb down the activity to the lowest common denominator: for the most part, seasoned, cultured individuals would always say the artistic and design-savvy is always the more entertaining. ... Sorry, I don't think the naive, subjective, agenda-driven fan base with their chemically-driven fast food McNugget logic should have any impact on the activity. If fans thought your attitude toward them was the dominant one among the DCI powers-that-be, DCI would soon cease to exist. Anyway, the "asinine proposal" was taken seriously enough by the corps directors that, following some revision, it will be reconsidered in March. Edited February 19, 2014 by JohnZ quoted inappropriate comment removed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 as a few here who have marched OC they will tell you the same...Ive spent many many summers in every god for saken place in the country and this has been my experience and also what I believe DCI has observed. If they didnt believe me money talks . Just like WGI....WC certainly draws the people in BUT the bread and butter and where the money is in many forms is that little High School A class...they support WGI for sure and WGI figured out they better pay attention to that class because if they go there wont be any WGI as we know it. Also as far as getting to a show because of work...etc etc...believe me if BD, Cadets, Cavies, etc etc were on during the beginning of the show you would nt see any difference...people would find a way to get there early...and probably leave early. with another excuse for leaving....I have no doubt of this at all....JMO At the TOC shows, you do have those corps sometimes going on first, or just after intermission. And still, people get there late because of work, traffic, the lot, concession/restroom lines, and so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 At the TOC shows, you do have those corps sometimes going on first, or just after intermission. And still, people get there late because of work, traffic, the lot, concession/restroom lines, and so on. Ok ..no reason to debate this..we just see or experience 2 different things. BUT I do think you are missing the point of who may or may not bring in the bucks...and the way to maybe change that.....thats the key point here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnZ Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 inappropriate comments removed....some know better, some don't. carry on.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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