What do you think the champions of yesteryear would score today?

[jwillis35]

No way star 91 would be competitive today. Are you kidding? Have you read the sheets?? I love that show. But seriously. It would be bottom 6 tops. Star 93 would fare far better.

I don't think much of anything from the 90s would place in the top 6, maybe not even the top 12.

Well, I respect your opinion, but I completely disagree. Star of Indiana in 1991 would beat both Cadets and BD as they stand right now. BD is wonderful, but does not have a brass line quite as good as Star 91 (and neither do Cadets, nor Crown). Star 91 percussion would hold their own, their drill would be better than most drill we are seeing in the top 12 today, their guard was magnificent (certainly in the ball park with BD), and their GE would, I think, be no. 1.

I honestly believe you can go back to 1991 with Star of Indiana and that they could win the title today with today's judges and system.

[ecamburn]

re: Star 91, IMO, I don't think they would beat Cadets or BD 2014. Star 91 brass, heck yeah. But the drill didn't place the same level of demand *throughout the show* as the drill of today's top corpsIMO. Of course there are segments of that show that placed tremendous musical and marching demands on performer like the part around 4:40. IMO, Star 91's drill also wasn't as clean as Cadets and BD are likely to be by finals (see rotating square at about 1:20). Star 91 percussion compared to the top lines in 2014 = no comparison IMO (with current lines coming out on top).

No doubt Star 91 was an amazing design and performance.

*edited to read more like English

Edited July 23, 2014 by ecamburn

[Cappybara]

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I think the champions of yesteryear would score in the 98 to 99 apple range whereas the champions of today would score in the 98 to 99 orange range.

This probably describes it best. There are just too many differences (G bugle instrumentation is a big one). It IS possible to compare I guess but you'd end up with low scores either way. Put Carolina Crown 2013 in the 90s and see how many penalties they accumulate. Then put Star 1993 in championships this year and its show design would probably be viewed as thin.

[wesleyrp]

No way star 91 would be competitive today. Are you kidding? Have you read the sheets?? I love that show. But seriously. It would be bottom 6 tops. Star 93 would fare far better.

I don't think much of anything from the 90s would place in the top 6, maybe not even the top 12.

I think cavaliers 2000-2004 would do okay, probably 2006 as well. Don't know if any would win but top 6 or medals wouldn't be out of the question depending on the year. Strangely enough, I feel like spin cycle would have the best chance. In some ways, I feel like today's show design is still in large part a reaction to the designs of those shows, mostly because other corps had to figure out how to combat them. How do you beat a corps that is completely crushing the game in terms of effect with drill design and musical integration (not to mention the consistency of their performance captions back then... brass was almost always top 2 or 3, cavaliers won VP every finals NIGHT from 2000 to 2008), guard and drums always good, drill notoriously clean...?

You fight back with a different formula, one that the Cadets unveiled IMHO in 2005, a counter to that style of show design that could win.

Obviously recent Devs shows are competitive. Honestly not sure about phantom 08, maybe I need to watch it again but I feel like the rest of the top 4 from that year have aged more gracefully. Probably just biased though, I can admit that. Never been a regiment fan.

I think the "Cavaliers millenium" shows, culminating in 2006 (maybe throw 08 in there too, I don't know. Not 05 or 07) represent the pinnacle of what show design was before the sheets changed and storyline became more complex. Seamless integration, very pure effect from honest drill and musical moments, executed at some of the highest levels seen.

Cadets imo set the template and the standard for the counterattack to that in 2005, blue devils and crown have been crushing it lately.

Discuss.

Star 91 would absolutely be competitive at the top tier. Those mellos and sops from that year were the best ever in DCI.... EVER. Listen to the opening statement by the sops- they sound like a hybrid mello they have such a dark tone! There's a reason all other Pines of Rome shows have paled in comparison.... Because Star had perfection. Cross to Cross- Best Drill then and would easily be best drill this year.... I love all the stuff BD, Bluecoats and Crown are doing with today's electronics but what Star achieved without it and on G bugles- the first models of the 3valve I might add was outrageous Edited July 23, 2014 by wesleyrp

[Lincoln]

This probably describes it best. There are just too many differences (G bugle instrumentation is a big one). It IS possible to compare I guess but you'd end up with low scores either way. Put Carolina Crown 2013 in the 90s and see how many penalties they accumulate. Then put Star 1993 in championships this year and its show design would probably be viewed as thin.

I agree.

[chris ncsu]

My impression is that corps in the 90s got away with more visual dirt than is tolerated now, and in general the content of today's guard book and pit book is thicker than in the 90s, and yes nowadays there needs to be a theme of some kind.

If these things ARE generally true, then looking at the 1990s champions, I would think the following can do well today:

Blue Devils 1997 (maybe 1994 and 1996)

Cadets 1998 (ok, lacks a theme, but the performance is comparable to today)

[hostrauser]

Judging from 20 years ago was FAR more permissive of execution flaws than judging of today. 1995 Cavaliers would maybe place 8th-10th at 2014 Finals on visual and percussion alone, but their brass would be 12th out of 12 at Finals. Just listen to how many problems that horn line had, especially in the closer. Missed attacks, poor intonation, voices sticking out of the ensemble... and all of that added on top of the shrill tone quality inherent to G bugles. And this was a CHAMPIONSHIP show, not some also-ran from the middle of the pack. Listen to 1998 Vanguard, a show I personally LOVE. But man, their brass was GASSED by the end of the show. Their tone is paper-thin, there's no oomph to it. They still got silver.

Not saying these errors don't still happen in modern DCI, but by Finals the Top 3 or 4 corps are entirely or almost entirely free of them every single year. 2007 Vanguard's brass was also terribly gassed by the end of the show, and they were lucky to finish 5th (one could make a strong argument they should have been 7th). The demand AND execution level of today is SO MUCH higher than 20 years ago I don't think it would even be a contest. The only two pre-2000 shows I would even give puncher's chance of making Top 5 would be 1998 Cadets (still the cleanest visual performance I've ever seen, and clean wins in modern DCI more than at any point in the past) and MAYBE 1994 Blue Devils (the standard bearer for "total package" in my book).

If you dislike the arranging/design styles of modern drum corps, that's a different argument. But you can't dispute the difficulty and execution level of today is on an entirely different plane (unless you're wearing rose-tinted glasses/hearing-aid).

[MikeN]

I don't know why we can't accept that DCI musicians/athletes really are better today on aggregate. They average older, they are using instruments they've played year-round for more years, they run faster, jump higher and have vastly more professional training in all areas.

I love late 80's and 90's drum corps - it's my favorite era. But I agree with hostrauser - if you don't like the arranging, that's one thing, but to say that the bar hasn't been raised... yeah.

Mike

[jwillis35]

Everyone is bringing up excellent points. Where I will agree with a lot of you is that the best corps from 90s DCI were often less clean. That was the decade where demand rose to some obscene levels. This was the tail-end of the Garfield effect from the 80s. Some of the champions were not very clean. I did elude to Cadets and Star from 1993 in this regard. Two of the most demanding shows I've ever seen competing against each other for the title. In today's DCI they wouldn't fair as well (if performed just as they were on finals night in 93) because judging today is rewarding cleanliness above all providing you have good show construction and demand.

The interesting thing about 1993 is this: if that show were held today, but with the top 5 from 1993, Phantom Regiment would actually win. They were the cleanest corps of the night and had an excellent show with solid demand and wonderful GE. BD would take 2nd, Star 3rd, and Cadets 4th. So perhaps that's another way of looking at it.

Now Star of Indiana 1991, to me, was wonderfully clean (not perfect, but clean enough), and their performance captions would easily hang with these corps of today. I could see them winning, but so much of this debate really comes down to who is judging and what era are we judging from. If the present-day corps had to compete with Star 1991 back then, give me Star all day long. If Star has to come to the future (as is), it's close, but most of you are probably right about not being clean enough. I suspect they might be doing as well as Crown is this year, maybe a little worse.

What's interesting about all this is all the great discussion that's already taken place on this forum concerning credit for demand vs. being clean. Just how much demand is needed? Today it seems as though you need a good theme, just enough demand to make Box 5, and then you'd better clean and bring out top-notch performance from your brass, percussion, guard, and marching. As I stated in a different thread, there are some pros and cons to this, but I do LOVE the fact that we are seeing some CLEAN shows again. Even over the early 2000s. The system today seems closer to the TIC system of the 70s and early 80s. Not exactly like it, but close. That's not a bad thing.

[jwillis35]

Judging from 20 years ago was FAR more permissive of execution flaws than judging of today. 1995 Cavaliers would maybe place 8th-10th at 2014 Finals on visual and percussion alone, but their brass would be 12th out of 12 at Finals. Just listen to how many problems that horn line had, especially in the closer. Missed attacks, poor intonation, voices sticking out of the ensemble... and all of that added on top of the shrill tone quality inherent to G bugles. And this was a CHAMPIONSHIP show, not some also-ran from the middle of the pack. Listen to 1998 Vanguard, a show I personally LOVE. But man, their brass was GASSED by the end of the show. Their tone is paper-thin, there's no oomph to it. They still got silver.

<snip>

If you dislike the arranging/design styles of modern drum corps, that's a different argument.

Excellent points! Yes, the 1990s were crammed with demand and a little more tolerant of dirt. That 1995 Cavaliers show was one heck of a design, so it might still do well in GE and total Visual, but it would get blasted in brass content, demand, and execution. Good points also about 1998 SCV. By today's judging standards Cadets 1998 would have won that show by 3.0 points or more. It should NOT have been close.

Think about how dirty Cadets were in 1997 and they still took silver. Now, that show had freakish demand in it. Just watch the opener to the end. Talk about notes and crazy, killer drill. But I think the lesson Cadets learned that year was this: was all that demand really worth the effort when a cleaner, less demanding show will beat you? They scaled it back a pinch in 1998. Even their 2000 show is not exactly break-neck killer drill and music. It's just awesome design and very entertaining music. Some excellent staging, too. But even that show wasn't super clean.

I am excited by what Cadets and BD and Bluecoats are giving us this year (even SCV and Crown). It's nice to see really clean shows, and the top 2 are really beginning to take off.

Edited July 23, 2014 by jwillis35