2015 Predictions

[Jeff Ream]

what if they get a penalty?

then they aren't the highest scoring corps. subtotals don't count, final numbers do.

[DrumManTx]

then they aren't the highest scoring corps. subtotals don't count, final numbers do.

But the penalty could result in the highest score still being the highest score just a little bit lower than the initial highest score if the highest score is high enough over the second highest score.

[Jeff Ream]

But the penalty could result in the highest score still being the highest score just a little bit lower than the initial highest score if the highest score is high enough over the second highest score.

if a penalty causes them to not have the highest final number, then they are NOT the highest scoring corps.

[drumcorpsfever]

I sense upward momentum gaining for Crown and Bluecoats since shows have been announced and whatever clips shared. The winner will be the DCI premier in Indy and those tuning into the Fan Network. Too bad we can't have BD and SCV there too. We're going to have to wait until July 11 in MN to see these top dogs all head-to-head.

Edited May 26, 2015 by drumcorpsfever

[DrumManTx]

I sense upward momentum gaining for Crown and Bluecoats since shows have been announced and whatever clips shared. The winner will be the DCI premier in Indy and those tuning into the Fan Network. Too bad we can't have BD and SCV there too. We're going to have to wait until July 11 in MN to these top dogs all head-to-head.

BD's going east earlier than they usually do, they meet up with Cadets and Crown on the 2nd of July and tour around with them head to head for a few shows before Minnesota. Bluecoats will be absent at the first big meet up in Minneapolis to go to Drums Along the Rockies. Phantom going out west as well. A little bit different competitive environment this year, San Antonio being the first big meet up again. I'm interested to see how that affects things, I have some theories......we'll see.

Edited May 26, 2015 by DrumManTx

[bill]

You're right in theory. As of last year, World Class and Open Class corps were supposed to be judged on exactly the same standards. However, as noted in this post, multiple Open Class corps last year had shows that were under time:

8 min. 32 sec. -- Gold

8 min. 33 sec. -- Coastal Surge

8 min. 48 sec. -- Genesis

8 min. 53 sec. -- Colt Cadets

9 min. 0 sec. -- Blue Saints

9 min. 4 sec. -- Stentors

9 min. 8 sec. -- Legends

9 min. 31 sec. -- 7th Regiment

9 min. 41 sec. -- Racine Scouts

And yet none of those corps received penalties at World Class prelims.

As mentioned and now presently confirmed, in essence, open class in comparison to world class scores are an "apples to oranges" comparison; since the format of competitive time requirement are not equal----blurring (at best) the fundamental formula of equality.

Kinda like one football team being allowed to play on an 80 yard football field and their opponents on a standard 100 yard field.

[Kamarag]

As mentioned and now presently confirmed, in essence, open class in comparison to world class scores are an "apples to oranges" comparison; since the format of competitive time requirement are not equal----blurring (at best) the fundamental formula of equality.

Kinda like one football team being allowed to play on an 80 yard football field and their opponents on a standard 100 yard field.

Except that the top Open Class corps for the most part play on the same 100 yard field by choice. As I said earlier, the corps that chose the shorter show generally weren't going to beat any World Class corps anyway. So no, it's not apples to oranges.

[N.E. Brigand]

You know, now that I think about it, the minimum time might be a minute shorter for Open Class corps (it's 10 minutes for World Class). It's been a while since I taught in Open (2009), and I cannot for the life of me find the rule book I carried around at shows (mostly due to the electronics changes that went into effect that year). I do know that the max show length is indeed the same...that's the rule we were more concerned with at the time.

Even if this is the case, I don't see it as being a big deal. All the corps you listed are smaller or have much shorter tours and less time commitment than the larger Open Class corps that would realistically compete with the bottom end of World Class. I also would venture to guess that the World Class directors signed off on suspending or ignoring the minimum show length for those corps. In fact, that was the year that DCI becaume much more concerned with the overall time on the field...entrance, pre-show, performance, exit. That was the window that was scrutinized in much greater detail (and still is).

EDIT: Found the 2009 rules online here. The minimum time for Open Class is indeed shorter, at 8:30, but has the same back end of 11:30. Not sure if it's changed since then.

Thanks. I knew that the minimum time had previously been shorter for Open Class than for World Class, and perhaps it still is. My concern is strictly for those situations where all the corps are being judged together on the same sheets at the same event, i.e., World Class Prelims and Semis. Specifically...

Cascades.

They were 26th in Prelims, with a score of 72.250.

They had a full-length show of 10 min. 17 sec.

Two Open Class corps who placed 25th or better in Prelims got to move on to Semis:

--7th Regiment was 25th with 72.350. Their show ran 9 min. 31 sec. and

--Genesis was 23rd in Prelims with 75.175. Their show ran 8 min. 48 sec.

The rules to which you link provide for a penalty of 0.100 for every 3 seconds under time.

Therefore, if those two Open Class corps had to abide by the same timing standards as Cascades, they would have been penalized with:

--Genesis: 72 sec. under time = 24 x 0.1 = 2.4 pt. penalty, and

--7th Regiment: 29 sec. under time = 10 x 0.1 = 1.0 pt. penalty.

Applying that all the under-time corps, and instead of these results:

21. 77.750 -- Mandarins

22. 75.550 -- Jersey Surf

23. 75.175 -- Genesis

24. 74.425 -- Spartans

25. 72.350 -- 7th Regiment

26. 72.250 -- Cascades

27. 71.575 -- Music City

28. 71.250 -- Gold

29. 71.000 -- Legends

30. 68.850 -- Pioneer

31. 66.250 -- Raiders

32. 63.150 -- Colt Cadets

33. 60.625 -- Coastal Surge

34. 57.425 -- Les Stentors

35. 55.600 -- Racine Scouts

36. 51.250 -- Blue Saints

You would have these results:

21. 77.750 -- Mandarins

22. 75.550 -- Jersey Surf

23. 74.425 -- Spartans

24. 72.775 -- Genesis

25. 72.250 -- Cascades

26. 71.575 -- Music City

27. 71.350 -- 7th Regiment

28. 69.200 -- Legends

29. 68.850 -- Pioneer

30. 68.250 -- Gold

31. 66.250 -- Raiders

32. 60.850 -- Colt Cadets

33. 57.625 -- Coastal Surge

34. 55.525 -- Les Stentors

35. 54.900 -- Racine Scouts

36. 49.250 -- Blue Saints

(Patria, whose show was significantly over time, as I recall, would be 37th either way.)

So Genesis is in either way, but 7th Regiment would have dropped two slots, and Cascades would have made Semis.

In addition to that meaning one more performance for Cascades, don't the amounts of corps' seasonal payouts from DCI depend in part on their final rank?

I think the Cascades could rightly say that if they were allowed to present a show that was 89 second shorter than what they did without fear of penalty, they would certainly have gotten a higher score from the judges.

There is another possibility, although I think it's unlikely: maybe the judges continued to judge these short-show Open Class corps after they finished performing but before "permanently" left the field. Were Genesis and 7th Regiment just very slow in leaving? Do the Prelims visual judges' tapes include comments on how neatly those corps cleaned up their equipment after playing?

Or maybe, as you say, the World Class corps decided to take the risk that this would happen, and it just didn't pay off for one W.C. corps.

[Kamarag]

I'm right there with you except...

I think the Cascades could rightly say that if they were allowed to present a show that was 89 second shorter than what they did without fear of penalty, they would certainly have gotten a higher score from the judges.

Or maybe, as you say, the World Class corps decided to take the risk that this would happen, and it just didn't pay off for one W.C. corps.

I don't think the length of Cascades' show had any impact on their numbers. Judges don't keep track of show time at all, and were likely told not to worry about show length as any sort of criteria. I think Cascades ended up where they would have regardless of 7th Regiment's shorter show. In isolation is that fair? Probably not. But then again, it could be argued that a truly "world class" corps wouldn't have been scoring that low in the first place. I understand if that upsets folks, but it is what it is.

And yea, it's far more likely that when DCI and the board decided to make quarterfinals the free-for-all show they came to a gentleman's agreement to disregard the rule on minimum show time. I'm fine with that. If the Open Class corps that jumped over several World Class corps had shorter shows, I'd buy the argument....but I don't believe they did (though I could certainly be wrong here). Do you happen to have times on Blue Devils B and Vanguard Cadets?

Edited May 26, 2015 by Kamarag

[bill]

Except that the top Open Class corps for the most part play on the same 100 yard field by choice. As I said earlier, the corps that chose the shorter show generally weren't going to beat any World Class corps anyway. So no, it's not apples to oranges.

Hmm? With that being said---cue music; we must be in that foggy void of life called the (to paraphrase) "all depends what "is" is." zone.

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