BRASSO Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 there is so much B.S. in this thread, it has reached that point where it is just funny to read... and yours just might be the funniest yet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaners Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 and yours just might be the funniest yet! heh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 I hate to start the ring chaser argument, because that's not really what this is about, but lets go there for a second...and look at the reasons people march in a top corps. These are not in any particular order.Reason 1 - grew up loving the corps. I dont even live in Jersey, but I have a lot of friends that have loved the cadets (in MD) since they were first introduced to band. My friends and family in jersey, mostly grew up with the corps, and there was never any other place TO march. My sister grew up watching me march....guess where she wound up?? Reason 2 - marketing- ties into reason 1, but how many people list their favorite show as cadets 2000, scv 89, BD 94, Cavies 04, etc?... When talking about new fans to the activity, the fact is that the first shows their friend or band director EVER shows them is going to probably be a famous championship show, or something close in notoriety. When people grow up with a certain corps, chances are they're going to march in that corps if at all possible. Reason 3 - staff / connections. More people go to where the big names are. Call it a negative if you must, but with DCI being more about 'education' (which yes, is an arguable point), kids go where the famous staff is. They also go where they have connections...or where their boa staff teaches in some cases.....and this is HUGE for winterguard. Now, does the best staff winding up at the best corps sort of perpetuate this cycle...mostly, but look at madison this year for example. Before a single word was said about their show design or retro uniform, there was already HUGE hype about them, and all the kids that would be clamoring to audition there. Kids, especially college students often look for what kind of musical value they're going to get out of their experience, and go where the best teachers are. Reason 4 - THEY WANT TO BE AMAZING. I dont know how else to put this, and I'm sorry if offends somebody, but if you have been marching in a smaller corps for a few years, only have 1 or 2 years left, and have spent years watching these top groups perform, you may want to be a part of that. Most of the people i know that came up to Cadets from another corps didnt do it to chase a ring, they did it to be a part of THE FREAKING CADETS!....I dont know, maybe I'm naive, but thats kind of a big deal to people. Im sure the same thing happens to people that go to BD or Cavies. Do those 3 have the best statistical chance of winning any given year?....sure, but they also have the best chance of being holy-crap-thats-so-insane-its-legendary each year as well. For someone that can only afford to march DCI 1 more time, there really is no other choice if you want that experience. Pretty much without exception, the reason people in 2005 in my corps were happy after finals wasn't because we got a piece of metal....they were happy because we were freaking AWESOME. I dont know, maybe it sounds like the same thing to some, but to me, those reasons dont sound like ring chasing to me. Chasing history, tradition, excellence?....finding the best fit, going where you always dreamed?....yeah. Ring chasing?...not so much... Oh, and I have more reasons, but i think this is enough for now -------- disclaimer - I recognize that ring chasers DO exist, but by and large they are few in number, and not really indicative of the general mobility of the dci populace. Additionally, I recognize that there is also a TON of value to be had in other kinds of marching experiences, and am in no way trying to put those down. Thank you, and good night Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcsnare93 Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Drum corps is an actitivity where there are only a handful of corps that will ever be scored high. I like the idea of the street clothes show to see what would really go down since only BD, Cadets, Crown, SCV, Cavs, and maybe MAYBE Phantom or Coats ever get up there to have a chance at it. If the top 6 from last year are horrible next year and the Mandarins rock the house, the top 6 would still be scored better. Judging is based almost all on the corps and who they are, BD finishing outside of top 3 in the next 10 years, yea whatever. It's the freakin Blue Devils, judges would be lynched for not having them in top 3 every year. It's odd how the drum corps breaks down. Next year it will the 2 west coast and 2 east coast corps going for the win cuz of their name. BD, SCV and Cadets, Crown. If that's not your top 4 next year...I would be surprised I don't recall any judges being lynched in 2005 when BD did not make the top 3 (*gasp*). Honestly, I don't get the argument. So far no one has provided one example where Pioneer, Pacific Crest, Academy, Colts, Mandarins, etc should have scored higher than a top 6 corps in any given year. You can sit here and complain about the judging system being unfair all you want, but so far zero evidence has been offered to support any of these claims. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmroth1 Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 I agree with both sides of the argument to a certain extent. For the most part corps place around where they should be placing. There are certainly exceptions to this on given nights and many times I have shut my eyes and listened to a show or watched a show and pretended the corps was wearing a different uniform and left the stadium scratching my head realizing a corps was given a gift for that night. I think part of what leads to some of this is slotting (which does exist) and expectations of where a corps fits into placement. However, with that said a corps that places in the lower groupings just isn't talented enough to win and it usually shows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommyfromhowardst Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Actually, they can win.............just ####in' do it.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
84skyrydr Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Actually, they can win.............just ####in' do it.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillH Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 I hate to start the ring chaser argument, because that's not really what this is about, but lets go there for a second...and look at the reasons people march in a top corps. These are not in any particular order.Reason 1 - grew up loving the corps. I dont even live in Jersey, but I have a lot of friends that have loved the cadets (in MD) since they were first introduced to band. My friends and family in jersey, mostly grew up with the corps, and there was never any other place TO march. My sister grew up watching me march....guess where she wound up?? Reason 2 - marketing- ties into reason 1, but how many people list their favorite show as cadets 2000, scv 89, BD 94, Cavies 04, etc?... When talking about new fans to the activity, the fact is that the first shows their friend or band director EVER shows them is going to probably be a famous championship show, or something close in notoriety. When people grow up with a certain corps, chances are they're going to march in that corps if at all possible. Reason 3 - staff / connections. More people go to where the big names are. Call it a negative if you must, but with DCI being more about 'education' (which yes, is an arguable point), kids go where the famous staff is. They also go where they have connections...or where their boa staff teaches in some cases.....and this is HUGE for winterguard. Now, does the best staff winding up at the best corps sort of perpetuate this cycle...mostly, but look at madison this year for example. Before a single word was said about their show design or retro uniform, there was already HUGE hype about them, and all the kids that would be clamoring to audition there. Kids, especially college students often look for what kind of musical value they're going to get out of their experience, and go where the best teachers are. Reason 4 - THEY WANT TO BE AMAZING. I dont know how else to put this, and I'm sorry if offends somebody, but if you have been marching in a smaller corps for a few years, only have 1 or 2 years left, and have spent years watching these top groups perform, you may want to be a part of that. Most of the people i know that came up to Cadets from another corps didnt do it to chase a ring, they did it to be a part of THE FREAKING CADETS!....I dont know, maybe I'm naive, but thats kind of a big deal to people. Im sure the same thing happens to people that go to BD or Cavies. Do those 3 have the best statistical chance of winning any given year?....sure, but they also have the best chance of being holy-crap-thats-so-insane-its-legendary each year as well. For someone that can only afford to march DCI 1 more time, there really is no other choice if you want that experience. Pretty much without exception, the reason people in 2005 in my corps were happy after finals wasn't because we got a piece of metal....they were happy because we were freaking AWESOME. I dont know, maybe it sounds like the same thing to some, but to me, those reasons dont sound like ring chasing to me. Chasing history, tradition, excellence?....finding the best fit, going where you always dreamed?....yeah. Ring chasing?...not so much... Oh, and I have more reasons, but i think this is enough for now -------- disclaimer - I recognize that ring chasers DO exist, but by and large they are few in number, and not really indicative of the general mobility of the dci populace. Additionally, I recognize that there is also a TON of value to be had in other kinds of marching experiences, and am in no way trying to put those down. Thank you, and good night Nick, From a Garfield alum who played in that baritone line 20 years before you, Thank You. Thank you for reaffirming that the reason current members choose to go to places like Cadets, BD and Cavaliers is STILL because they are drawn to the corps' respective image/approach and driven to take the opportunity to do ANYTHING to perform at that level. That is what it was all about for the 43 of us who won the three-peat and I am so happy to hear that it was true for you and others more recently. You are a true example of a Cadet. FHNSAB, Bill Hawkes Garfield Cadets baritone, 1983, 1984, 1985 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BozzlyB Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 BRASSO, you are quite correct. The term "Elite" is what is in question. Are BD, Cavies, and Cadets "Elite"? They are all former champions and CONSISTENTLY in the top five or six, so I would say yes. SCV? Yes, for the same reason. Crown? Here is where it gets sticky. No, they are not former champions. And, while their star is definitely on the rise, BAC has been in the top 7 more than they have. Actually, BAC has been in the top 12 more than they have as well. Phantom? Well, they won twice with great shows, but are now in 9th. Is that "Elite"? I do not know. But with them in 9th and Boston and Bluestars ahead, what does that make those two corps? In some fashion, Crown's recent rise is good for Bluecoats, BAC, and Bluestars, because it demonstrates that corps can in fact rise through the ranks. As for what I think "Elite" should mean, I put more weight on longevity......which corps have survived the longest??!! Here are my Elite Corps, in order of longevity: #1. The Cadets #2. Madison Scouts #3. Boston Crusaders #4. Cavaliers #5. Troopers These corps are truly "ELITE"!!! No one on your list has "survived" longer or through more trials and tribulations than Blue Stars have, so I guess they're in the elite list by that logic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glory Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 ...I find it instructive that out of the 7 Corps that were in " The Combine " that together started DCI back over 35 years ago..... more than half of those 7 Corps are still in existence today, and finishing in the TOP 12 almost every year.. While out of the over 300 Corps not allowed to vote on DCI policy in the 1st year, less than 5 % of those 300 Corps are even still in competition today, and none of them are in the Top 20 today... Who knew how cutthroat DCI could be? A handful of corps systematically manipulating the vote to destroy so many noble corps. Who was the brains behind this nefarious conspiracy given that it started way before Hopkins? Was it Warren? Moxley? Royer? Bonfiglio? This is like Saddam Hussein purging potential dissenters and rivals from the Iraqi government when he came to power. I had no idea. HH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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