euponitone Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Because in the end this is a compettitive activity, and the majority of it's participants thrive on that and want to be a part of the best. There are also a finite number of years someone can march. If someone has given 3 years to corps X that hasn't improved in the rankings or become more compettitive, they should not feel bad about wanting to march in a corps that competes at a different level and offers a different experience. There is no corps out there that can promise a 15 year old rookie member that if they stick with them the corps will achieve X goal by the time they age out. There are numerous factors that impact a corps ability to move up in the ranks, and member retention is only one of them. Did Blue Stars retain every eligible vet over the last 7 years to move from Open Class to two consecutive 8th place finishes in World Class? Of course not, the idea is absurd, and in retrospect while retention was certainly good one can point to numerous other factors that have had a more significant impact on their success. I was going to bring up Blue Stars in one of my posts, because they are a great example of how to do it right. Jumping from 14th to 8th is no small feat, and having personally watched them both years, its about as impressive of a leap that a corps can make. Thinking that a corps (in comparison) should be able to go from 14th to 1st in one year is just kind of insane, when you look at all the factors involved. Nothing wrong or sinister about it...just how it is... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 (edited) I'm wondering why as some people have said that you have to prove yourself over the years. They can't come out one year and win. Why couldn't a corps go from 18 to first....oh because it's never been done. God forbid someone outside the current elite wins big. Why does thee have to be history to be a winner. I'm sure there is some high scvhool drill designer just as good as some of the top ones in DCI like there are other instructors. But because they haven't paid thier dues thier not going to get the scores. Another problem is that I see people with several corps listed on there sig. Usually it goes something like this, Citation 89-90 Jazz 91-92 Boston Crusaders 93-95 etc. (and for the love of GOD I'm only using these corps as an example) Why couldn't someone who gets better marching with Surf stay there and make them better instead of going to Cadets or some other top 12 corps. I kow they want to win. Immediate satisfaction. When I marched Crossmen I knew we wouldn't win but even if I could have I wouldn't wanted to march in another corps. If I had my druthers I wanted my kids to march either Surf or Raiders because I liked what they were doing. My son definitely could have marched anywhere (not saying that because I'm his father but because he was that good) We talk about "my corps is a family" but I can't and won't leave my family' I joined a fire company that has good and bad times but I'm not going to the nieghboring company who is doing better. How good would the Raiders, Surf, Citations, any of a hundred smaller corps be if members stayed around longer. Under current NCAA Div.1A college football By Laws, if a player decides to transfer to another Div.1A football program, that player needs to sit out a year before playing for the other school. While this would be a contentious and probably impossible issue if instituted in DCI, ( Football has no age restrictions like DCI has, ) it is by no means unprecedented in the Drum Corps activity. Prior to DCI, several local associations allowed policies where a Corps would need to officially release a marching member to another Corps. Such " releases " were not always granted, and it was frowned upon for a member to go to a competing corps within that circuit. Many thought twice about incurring a rather acrimonious attempt to go to a competing corps within the same circuit. That said, in practicalilty,some members did go that route, and transferred successfully. But transferring was by no means something that was done in a rather routine way like it is done so easily and so routinely today in DCI. Edited December 14, 2009 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noneofyourbusiness Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Because in the end this is a compettitive activity, and the majority of it's participants thrive on that and want to be a part of the best. There are also a finite number of years someone can march. If someone has given 3 years to corps X that hasn't improved in the rankings or become more compettitive, they should not feel bad about wanting to march in a corps that competes at a different level and offers a different experience. There is no corps out there that can promise a 15 year old rookie member that if they stick with them the corps will achieve X goal by the time they age out. There are numerous factors that impact a corps ability to move up in the ranks, and member retention is only one of them. Did Blue Stars retain every eligible vet over the last 7 years to move from Open Class to two consecutive 8th place finishes in World Class? Of course not, the idea is absurd, and in retrospect while retention was certainly good one can point to numerous other factors that have had a more significant impact on their success. I truly believe that there are two main groups of people that march drum corps today: those that do it because they love to march in/live the drum corps experience, and those that are marching as part of their music education "curriculum". I know quite a few people that currently march in DCI corps at all levels that are not currently, and/or do not plan on being, music majors. These people are all very strong performers (usually in lead positions) in their corps and march in corps because they love the experience. Their plans are to become doctors, lawyers, engineers, accountants, etc., and they do drum corps for the satisfaction they get out of it. Then there are many more I have seen over the last decade that came in to march drum corps so they could add it to their resume in their search for that music performance or music education career position. These people have a goal to learn as much as they can about marching music during their DCI careers and to fulfill their overall goal of a life based on music. Inevitably, the non-music majors seem to be the ones that will stick with one corps for their entire career, or at least the majority of it, while the ones pursuing the music majors are the ones that march in many different corps at different levels, usually tending towward the top corps later in their drum corps careers. This is also the group that normally produces the "one-and-done" drum corps members. Now, I have seen exceptions to the above stated cases, however, in the large majority of instances, this is how it pans out. This is no way is a slight to either of these groups, it is simply an observation after many years of traveling with and relating with modern DCI drum corps members. The goals of these two groups is obviously different, which may account for the observations noted above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euponitone Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 I truly believe that there are two main groups of people that march drum corps today: those that do it because they love to march in/live the drum corps experience, and those that are marching as part of their music education "curriculum". I know quite a few people that currently march in DCI corps at all levels that are not currently, and/or do not plan on being, music majors. These people are all very strong performers (usually in lead positions) in their corps and march in corps because they love the experience. Their plans are to become doctors, lawyers, engineers, accountants, etc., and they do drum corps for the satisfaction they get out of it. Then there are many more I have seen over the last decade that came in to march drum corps so they could add it to their resume in their search for that music performance or music education career position. These people have a goal to learn as much as they can about marching music during their DCI careers and to fulfill their overall goal of a life based on music. Inevitably, the non-music majors seem to be the ones that will stick with one corps for their entire career, or at least the majority of it, while the ones pursuing the music majors are the ones that march in many different corps at different levels, usually tending towward the top corps later in their drum corps careers. This is also the group that normally produces the "one-and-done" drum corps members. Now, I have seen exceptions to the above stated cases, however, in the large majority of instances, this is how it pans out. This is no way is a slight to either of these groups, it is simply an observation after many years of traveling with and relating with modern DCI drum corps members. The goals of these two groups is obviously different, which may account for the observations noted above. There may be some truth to that, but because there are simply so many reasons why a person chooses a certain corps, that i feel this pattern is just one of dozens... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glory Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Just don't use the term ring chasers. People get offended at the truth. People want satisfaction NOW. It works the other way too, you know. Phantom seemed to benefit hardly at all from that great run to the championship in 2008. Parents/volunteers told me the turnout for 2009 auditions wasn't at all what was expected. The impression was kids stayed away thinking everyone would rush to PR for 2009 and the competition would be too stiff. And Madison continued to draw hornline talent well into this decade long past any reasonable expectation that corps would compete for a title. If you joined Crown in '07 or '08 or even '09, did you really think you'd get a ring? Cadets in the narration years? A ring? Face it, since 2006, the only corps where you have a real shot at a ring is Blue Devils. Yet plenty of talent migrates to lots of other names. It's not ring chasing, it's success chasing, which is unfortunate but not all bad. HH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scerpella Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Its the nature of any subjectively evaluated competitive activity to be much like drum corps is today. In a truly competive objective endeavor, what you did last year or the many years in a row prior should have absolutely no bearing on what happens the following year. Every year should start off with a completely new slate. Every one equal on day 1. When you have a group of peoples livelihoods and financial well being tied to what they do or dont do competitively in this activity then it will always be this way. Everyone knows from Acheson right down the line to the judges instructors and staffs that when you do something which doesnt meet an expectation, you are endangering your gig. Drum corps is not a big money activity, but there are a few people who are making their nice livings from it and those folks in general run drum corps. Removing the competitive aspect from it would go along way to creating an activity where there was actual diversity, not only between the units but their styles, approaches and their entertainment value. But I worry it might permanently also remove the motivation for working hard or working for continual improvement without any subjective evaluation. If I were king of the world and was going to remake the activity, I might remake DCI so there were only two judged competitions the entire summer, Mid summer and at the end. The rest would strictly be exhibitions. This way there could be actual surprises at Finals. Now we all know that the moment a system like this went into place, the same people would immediately begin to try to leverage advantages into permanent dominance but I think there are ways to ensure that would be minimized. Does this mean I think the normal placings would be turned upside down? No but it would mean greater movement from year to year for smaller and growing and improving units and we'd be rid of the tendency of all the talent to continually congregate in the same corps year after year after year. In short new DCI would look alot more like the activity did pre-DCI. (in outcome) Now most corps philosophies stress that competitive success is secondary to individual development in commitment and excellence and interpersonal relationships. I wonder if DCI would ever put its money where its mouth is to actually create a system where those are the actual goals of the activity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
84skyrydr Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 My use of the term ring chasers is not meant to defy Euphi "I marched Cadets" tone etc, it is a broad generalization of people who can't hack making a corps good by retention/. It is about the me crowd who want instant recognition and glory built on the backs of others. The chasers of being in a top corps instead of relying on their talent to make the corps good by staying and being leaders. Its too easy to chase dreams, but hard work to stay and play. And no I am not saying that marching in Cadets or any other top corps is easy. It is just easier to attain the "glory" that comes form doing so. Look at peoples signatures as was stated earlier, two years here, but my screenname is --- insert top 5 corps here---. I personally know of someone who marched nine corps in nine years just to see the difference each one gave him. That I don't believe is ring chasing, but to march Corps B for two years and then jump to a top 5 corps for your final year, is a chaser. It isn't all about you mr. Euph guy, hence my nonresponse prior. Someone made a very legit argument for staying and building, I just cautioned him about people that feel bad about their esteem and jump ship to attain it back. Thats all. Don't take it so personally. If you can verify to me that NOBODY has ever gone to a corps for a ring, I can verify that you are wrong as my roommate in 82 told me directly. " I am going to Garfield next year. They are going to win it and I am going to be part of it. He marched 83-85 Cadets and won three rings. Ring chaser. He earned it, but he went where he thought his best chance was. So do a lot of people, so please tell me how that term ring chaser is wrong....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BozzlyB Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 This brings up an interesting thought. There seems to be a bit of debate as to why people march. Some (include me in this camp) believe that it is the desire to compete that drives people to march. There are obviously other reasons that go hand in hand with that, but I happen to believe that people who are willing to put themselves through the drum corps experience are, by and large, extremely compettitive by nature. There are others who think that people are driven to march just for the joy of it. The experience of performing, the friendships, the lifestyle etc... Let me pose this question then. If judging were completely removed from the activity, no scores given, no winner at the end of the night or season, performance for the sake of performance and applause, would people continue to march in the numbers that DCI currently sees? I don't have the answer, but my gut tells me participation would take a HUGE hit if this were the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schickmeister Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Blue Jays 10, Yankees 4You just made the OP's point for him. On any given day, a sports team can beat another. But I'll concede that drum corps isn't like other competitive sports. Garry in Vegas Yeah...but that means there would have to be a bench clearing brawl if the Colts beat BD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Its the nature of any subjectively evaluated competitive activity to be much like drum corps is today. In a truly competive objective endeavor, what you did last year or the many years in a row prior should have absolutely no bearing on what happens the following year. Every year should start off with a completely new slate. Every one equal on day 1. When you have a group of peoples livelihoods and financial well being tied to what they do or dont do competitively in this activity then it will always be this way. Everyone knows from Acheson right down the line to the judges instructors and staffs that when you do something which doesnt meet an expectation, you are endangering your gig. Drum corps is not a big money activity, but there are a few people who are making their nice livings from it and those folks in general run drum corps.Removing the competitive aspect from it would go along way to creating an activity where there was actual diversity, not only between the units but their styles, approaches and their entertainment value. But I worry it might permanently also remove the motivation for working hard or working for continual improvement without any subjective evaluation. If I were king of the world and was going to remake the activity, I might remake DCI so there were only two judged competitions the entire summer, Mid summer and at the end. The rest would strictly be exhibitions. This way there could be actual surprises at Finals. Now we all know that the moment a system like this went into place, the same people would immediately begin to try to leverage advantages into permanent dominance but I think there are ways to ensure that would be minimized. Does this mean I think the normal placings would be turned upside down? No but it would mean greater movement from year to year for smaller and growing and improving units and we'd be rid of the tendency of all the talent to continually congregate in the same corps year after year after year. In short new DCI would look alot more like the activity did pre-DCI. (in outcome) Now most corps philosophies stress that competitive success is secondary to individual development in commitment and excellence and interpersonal relationships. I wonder if DCI would ever put its money where its mouth is to actually create a system where those are the actual goals of the activity? question...when has drum corps even been objectively evaluated? the tick system was subjective as what is there now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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