craiga Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 WOW I was just thinking the same thing. Take Academy, What would happen if they really did switch uniforms and didn't tell anyone. How high would thier score be from the previous shows???I bet MUCH higher This is an interesting idea. While I do not believe in the "vast DCI Conspiracy" theory, (the judging community is not cohesive enough to pull this off, imo), I DO believe in the "competitive inertia" idea......or as I call it, the expectation game. Case in point: Phantom in the very early season..... as I recall, they were less than a point behind Crown at DCI Illinois, and something like 6 points over both Bluestars and Boston. Since both of these corps came out of the gate fairly well prepared this year while Phantom's design flaws haunted them all season, it would seem to me that PR was simply EXPECTED to be great. So, they were rewarded for their "anticipated" greatness as former champions, being scored artificially close to Crown and 6 pts ahead of the other two. Then, as the season progressed, the judges slowly (one might almost say begrudgingly) began to adjust their numbers as the emporer's new clothes were revealed. But it took a couple weeks into the season for the numbers to reflect reality. Nothing against the PR team....I just feel like when the panel had them .8 behind Crown then (and on par with what BD and HNC were doing at other venues), that was not an accurate rating or ranking and was probably doing a disservice to Phantom's staff and members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euponitone Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 But these are all corps that were in Finals before. And the last two are irrelevant, anyone can drop. BUT not everyone can jump from like 20th to top 12 in a year. And that was all pre-2000 when it can happen with a comeback. It's a new game now. Should everyone jump from 20th to the top 12 in a given year? For that to happen, a crapload of corps in the top 12 would have to fall out. So...corps dropping like stones is pretty relevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shostahoosier Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Should everyone jump from 20th to the top 12 in a given year? For that to happen, a crapload of corps in the top 12 would have to fall out. So...corps dropping like stones is pretty relevant. Actually only 1 corps would have to drop out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shostahoosier Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 I think what people (think they) want is more parity. Yes there hasnt been an example of when the 20th place corps should have beaten the 1st place corps in DCI. But it would be nice if things were competitive enough for that to be the case. I think a lot more kids would audition for a corps that lands in 10-12 place if they thought it had a chance of placing anywhere between 1-12 place as oppossed to 9-12 place. This burden falls on the lower placing corps to design better shows and attract talent....though it seems that from the thinking I see on this board, many people have been conditioned to believe that such a world is impossible....DCI might as well be the BCS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstar Posted December 17, 2009 Author Share Posted December 17, 2009 Since very few "kids" are in top 12 corps we need to stop thinking about how they feel. Its really about winning point blank-period. The doing best for kids went out of the activity years ago. Its about taking the best "kids" and winning. While several corps do give the not so good performers a chance I don't see anyone in the top..say 15-16 giving someone a chance to learn how to play an instrutment or twirl a flag (do they still do that). NO they have auditions and try outs. The average age of a corps tells alot. I understand that Madisons average age has been around 17 for the last couple of years. While that may not be the sole reason for thier placement lately it plays a big factor. And the problem (at least to me) is that as a corps moves up it leaves kids behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drumno5 Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 WOW I was just thinking the same thing. Take Academy, What would happen if they really did switch uniforms and didn't tell anyone. How high would thier score be from the previous shows???I bet MUCH higher Hey - I love you all, but please, please, STOP - give it a rest; go home, relax and enjoy the holidays. All this "I bet if [insert name of favorite lower tier corps] competed in street clothes, they could take on the big dogs and maybe win it all" is just tiring. No disrespect to any team out there. The world class corps as a group represent the best the activity has to offer. From first place to last, their members and staff put in endless hours to maximize their their resources and put the best possible team on the field, and they all produce viable, entertaining productions, performed at a commendable level of excellence. But when the dust settles in mid-August, the heavy hitters (whoever they may be in a given year or era) will rise to the upper tier. They're up in the top echelon because they program, play and march better than the groups below them, not because of perception, slotting, conspiracy or what-have-you. Yeah, of course you can argue that the group in 6th should have been 4th, or that the 3rd place corps should have won, or the 14th place corps should have made finals - that's the fun of it! But the notion that corps are routinely getting dumped to the tune of 3, 5 or 7 places so certain favored groups can maintain their status among the elite just doesn't hold water. holiday regards to all, Fred O. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barifonium Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 And they all marched happily ever after. --The End--- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noneofyourbusiness Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 This is an interesting idea. While I do not believe in the "vast DCI Conspiracy" theory, (the judging community is not cohesive enough to pull this off, imo), I DO believe in the "competitive inertia" idea......or as I call it, the expectation game.Case in point: Phantom in the very early season..... as I recall, they were less than a point behind Crown at DCI Illinois, and something like 6 points over both Bluestars and Boston. Since both of these corps came out of the gate fairly well prepared this year while Phantom's design flaws haunted them all season, it would seem to me that PR was simply EXPECTED to be great. So, they were rewarded for their "anticipated" greatness as former champions, being scored artificially close to Crown and 6 pts ahead of the other two. Then, as the season progressed, the judges slowly (one might almost say begrudgingly) began to adjust their numbers as the emporer's new clothes were revealed. But it took a couple weeks into the season for the numbers to reflect reality. Nothing against the PR team....I just feel like when the panel had them .8 behind Crown then (and on par with what BD and HNC were doing at other venues), that was not an accurate rating or ranking and was probably doing a disservice to Phantom's staff and members. This is the most important post made so far, yet no one has had the guts to say anything about it. I can say that I was at the Stillwater, MN show and was astounded when they announced the scores and had PR a full 6.5 over Blue Stars. I had estimated at most a one point spread. I said to my friend "did I miss something, or are the judges not seeing how bad that Phantom show is?". She just shrugged and said, "well, they ARE the Phantom Regiment". THAT, in a nutshell, is what causes corps to be slotted based on previous results. Judges are human just like the rest of us. They have memories, and those memories are hard to completely ignore. Just glad to see that the judges finally woke up in mid-July. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 (edited) Hey - I love you all, but please, please, STOP - give it a rest; go home, relax and enjoy the holidays. All this "I bet if [insert name of favorite lower tier corps] competed in street clothes, they could take on the big dogs and maybe win it all" is just tiring. No disrespect to any team out there. The world class corps as a group represent the best the activity has to offer. From first place to last, their members and staff put in endless hours to maximize their their resources and put the best possible team on the field, and they all produce viable, entertaining productions, performed at a commendable level of excellence. But when the dust settles in mid-August, the heavy hitters (whoever they may be in a given year or era) will rise to the upper tier. They're up in the top echelon because they program, play and march better than the groups below them, not because of perception, slotting, conspiracy or what-have-you. Yeah, of course you can argue that the group in 6th should have been 4th, or that the 3rd place corps should have won, or the 14th place corps should have made finals - that's the fun of it! But the notion that corps are routinely getting dumped to the tune of 3, 5 or 7 places so certain favored groups can maintain their status among the elite just doesn't hold water. holiday regards to all, Fred O. A " team " can move up the pecking order very quickly if they have great financial resources. For example, the Star of Indiana early on in their development got the lay of the land in DCI and decided that in order to realistically compete in the upper echelon, they would need to commit finances to go out and secure the best show designers, instructors in the business at that time. They went out and secured those staff members and paid those staff members commensurate with their lofty reputations in the business.. And it worked as planned. Those staff with pedigree attracted top notch talent to auditions, and the Corps quickly rose up the ranks of DCI over those Corps that were incapable or unwilling to commit such large amounts of financial commitments to securing the best staff money could buy. The single biggest determing factor in placement success in DCI above all others is...... money. It is no coincidence that the Corps at the very top of the activity have financial resources that dwarf those of Academy and Colts ( the subject of this thread ) With such financial resources come the best staff money can buy. One truism we have seen is that once Corps lose those financial resources ( for whatever reason ) and can't replenish it, one sees staff leave..... to other Corps with stronger financial resources..... and such loss of staff..... ultimately leads to loss of quality of member talent, which in turn shows up in placement scores. What is the lesson here ? It's this : show us the Corps with the most money to commit to bringing in the best staff, and you will find that Corps moving up the pecking order in DCI. And conversely, show us a team having financial difficulties, and all the sweat, hard work, long hours of practice and member commitment made by the members and the staff that Corps brings to the field of competition frankly won't mean a hill of beans by comparison. So I agree, it's not worth mulling too much over during this holiday season... or at any time.... for that matter, as the formula for placement success in DCI is not rocket science. When I want to know how a Corps is going to do in the next 2 years placement wise, I don't ask " how many horns ya going out with ?... " "how many showed up for auditions ? "or...." what's the show theme" ?, etc ? I would ask the Corps instead that famous TV commercial jingle..... " what's in YOUR wallet" ? If I know that, I really need all I need to know as to that Corps chances of moving up or not placement wise in the future. Edited December 17, 2009 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euponitone Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 This is the most important post made so far, yet no one has had the guts to say anything about it. I can say that I was at the Stillwater, MN show and was astounded when they announced the scores and had PR a full 6.5 over Blue Stars. I had estimated at most a one point spread. I said to my friend "did I miss something, or are the judges not seeing how bad that Phantom show is?". She just shrugged and said, "well, they ARE the Phantom Regiment". THAT, in a nutshell, is what causes corps to be slotted based on previous results. Judges are human just like the rest of us. They have memories, and those memories are hard to completely ignore.Just glad to see that the judges finally woke up in mid-July. This, at least, is an interesting point, although not exactly provable. One could certainly make the argument that Phantom WAS well ahead of Blue Stars early in the season, but by making so many major overhauls that they completely lost any chance at momentum and cohesion, and dropped like a rock. Most will admit for example that phantom had a superior music program to the groups competing around them, but when you spend all your time trying to get the show to make sense, doing visual rewrites, and constantly changing things, its tough to clean the stuff you already had....PLUS the new stuff. Meanwhile, corps like the Blue Stars and Boston are polishing what they have, making minor adjustments, and keeping things moving. NOW, i did not see phantom until allentown last season, so i cant personally make this judgement call, but the fact is that it is a very real possibility. I know it happens, because a similar thing happened to us in 2006.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.