DCI's "Artistic Shift"

[GUARDLING]

Yeah... And?

They were innovative. I'm talking about corps thay don't feel the need to push the envelope in that kind of way.

every corps pushes the envelope every year whether for themselves or to move up or just because they want to.

Cadets were certaily more traditional in style than BD this year.....or are you saying in THEIR specific way, the way of their choice

Edited August 15, 2012 by GUARDLING

[charlie1223]

every corps pushes the envelope every year whether for themselves or to move up or just because they want to.

Cadets were certaily more traditional in style than BD this year.....or are you saying in THEIR specific way, the way of their choice

I'm talking about in their specific way. BD pushing the envelope is different than SCV or Madison or Cavies. And I'm saying that with Madison developing shows that they do, they won't have wonky sound effects or intellectual thesis in their show, or do anything that ppl haven't seen before. They like to mix it up but ppl love them because they are doing things ppl have seen before. And would that honestly ever win DCI? If BD did a Madison type show would they come on top without the innovations in visual design?

[GUARDLING]

I'm talking about in their specific way. BD pushing the envelope is different than SCV or Madison or Cavies. And I'm saying that with Madison developing shows that they do, they won't have wonky sound effects or intellectual thesis in their show, or do anything that ppl haven't seen before. They like to mix it up but ppl love them because they are doing things ppl have seen before. And would that honestly ever win DCI? If BD did a Madison type show would they come on top without the innovations in visual design?

BD with whatever they choose im sure will do it to the max and do it their way which IMO is great as MAdison can do their thing Their way....also NOTHING wrong with doing something ppl havent seen...some do get bored hearing the same thing recycled over and over and I for 1 like hearing some of the older things or things Ive heard before.....why cant there be room for both

[joeybabay]

Here is a thought to chime in on - hopefully with perspective and not taking sides in the heated argument.

I think possibly the judges can be overly qualified.....

In an ideal situation, each of the panel should look only at their specific task at hand. Give the numbers per caption based on the very specific criteria on the sheets. Then if the system is set up to succeed - placement should be determined by the cumulative total of all captions.

But judges are all expected to cross captions from show to show over the course of a season. And I think it can be difficult to unlearn and remain at task. It becomes second nature to look at the whole, the big picture instead of the single component at hand. Possibly everyone reverts to the Effect???

I know that I judge Regionally and every small band and color guard circuit has tried to craft their own language. Most are similar, but there are some small and significant changes from one to another. As much as I try to really read the language in B&W before me and rate as charged and paid, it can be easy to fall back to defaults and the general.

[Stu]

Here is what it boils down to concerning the future growth/demise of DCI as a multi-million dollar organization providing venues and national touring to many other multi-million dollar organizations: Money; and lots of it. There are two ways to procure that money; get a large number of paying fans to buy tickets; or ask donors, and even the government, to financially support. Since I am a free-market capitalist I prefer selling tickets to paying fans. So, in that vain, which type of show structure would create more ticket sales, bring more non-initiated people to becoming fans of the activity, and increase the overall paying audience interest in DCI; And which type of show structure can only really be financially supported by donors, grants, and possibly even the government because only a few paying public would be interested?

a) Scouts Empire and Regiment Spartacus (shear entertainment).

b) Devils DADA and Cadets Zone (thought provoking art).

[charlie1223]

BD with whatever they choose im sure will do it to the max and do it their way which IMO is great as MAdison can do their thing Their way....also NOTHING wrong with doing something ppl havent seen...some do get bored hearing the same thing recycled over and over and I for 1 like hearing some of the older things or things Ive heard before.....why cant there be room for both

Yeah that's not what I'm talking about. I'm not saying I want only 1 kind of show design. I'm asking if judges prefer 1 design over another based on how new and innovative it is. Could an old school Madison show even win DCI anymore?

[Stu]

Yeah that's not what I'm talking about. I'm not saying I want only 1 kind of show design. I'm asking if judges prefer 1 design over another based on how new and innovative it is. Could an old school Madison show even win DCI anymore?

Are you saying that judges should only evaluate the quality of the product being presented and not the style? If so, then you are also saying that a really old-school block-slip, mirror-image, high mark-time drill should be able to win DCI in 2013.

[Catan]

I'll chime in. When I marched, my brass caption head always reminded us that people "hear" with their eyes - if we didn't march well, it didn't matter how well we played. I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. Visual is the priority and always should be. I can always go to a concert and hear music played. I can't see music in motion anywhere else than DCI.

In fact, at solo recitals I oftentimes hear with my eyes. If a performer looks uncomfortable and awkward, then I feel that way throughout their performance, regardless of how well they play. If they mess up, I will be less forgiving as well. If the performer looks rock solid and confident, I feel relaxed, and will overlook a slip up or two. The same applies to drum corps. I felt uncomfortable watching Crown this year, despite their incredible musical ability. I enjoyed BD and Phantom much much more, because at every point in their show they looked confident and in control, not like they were about to fall down or collapse from exhaustion.

A show can and should be musically driven, as long as the visual is at the same or higher level than the music (see Phantom, BD, BAC, Crossmen this year). A 60-40 music-visual judging system could potentially hurt the future progression of show design.

[MikeD]

Are you saying that judges should only evaluate the quality of the product being presented and not the style? If so, then you are also saying that a really old-school block-slip, mirror-image, high mark-time drill should be able to win DCI in 2013.

I doubt Charlie is saying that. To answer your question, I doubt a drill going that far back stylistically would be able to win DCI. "Old school" straight-ahead shows as a concept could win...if done according to modern day standards of design...PR 2008, Cadets 2011...those IMO were amazing shows that were the epitome of mainstream drum corps (IMO), as opposed to Cadets 2005 and BD 2012, for example.

[MikeD]

I'll chime in. When I marched, my brass caption head always reminded us that people "hear" with their eyes - if we didn't march well, it didn't matter how well we played. I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. Visual is the priority and always should be. I can always go to a concert and hear music played. I can't see music in motion anywhere else than DCI.

That is quite true...that is why you will hear band directors tell their students to never acknowledge a performance "oops" with visual cues (e.g. scrunching up your nose or making a face when something goes wrong)...always look as though whatever you just played is exactly how it was supposed to be...look confident on stage...

...even as the piece you are playing is falling apart all around you into steaming pile.