DCI's "Artistic Shift"

[Kevin Powell]

That is quite true...that is why you will hear band directors tell their students to never acknowledge a performance "oops" with visual cues (e.g. scrunching up your nose or making a face when something goes wrong)...always look as though whatever you just played is exactly how it was supposed to be...look confident on stage...

...even as the piece you are playing is falling apart all around you into steaming pile.

Give a visual "perception of perfection".

[Kevin Powell]

Are you saying that judges should only evaluate the quality of the product being presented and not the style? If so, then you are also saying that a really old-school block-slip, mirror-image, high mark-time drill should be able to win DCI in 2013.

There is no reason that these things were removed. If it is correct at the correct moment in time during a show, there is no reason that old-school block-slip/mirror-image/high mark-time could not be useful and could be able to win. Just combine it with new.

[MikeN]

I have to say, I've followed DCI for 25 years, and have talked with a number of very high up DCI folks over that time. And I have no clue how GE is determined anymore. Or how and why "caption bleed" happens - or is allowed to happen.

Honestly, what I take away from the whole judging process is that it feels like it's done on the fly, and that there is a tangible inertia when looking at corps, no matter what has been said about "any given night." That's just not true.

Mike

[MikeD]

Give a visual "perception of perfection".

[GUARDLING]

I have to say, I've followed DCI for 25 years, and have talked with a number of very high up DCI folks over that time. And I have no clue how GE is determined anymore. Or how and why "caption bleed" happens - or is allowed to happen.

Honestly, what I take away from the whole judging process is that it feels like it's done on the fly, and that there is a tangible inertia when looking at corps, no matter what has been said about "any given night." That's just not true.

Mike

theres been bleed over in most captions for decades.....one thing usually always affects another

[Grandpa]

I have to say, I've followed DCI for 25 years, and have talked with a number of very high up DCI folks over that time. And I have no clue how GE is determined anymore. Or how and why "caption bleed" happens - or is allowed to happen.

Honestly, what I take away from the whole judging process is that it feels like it's done on the fly, and that there is a tangible inertia when looking at corps, no matter what has been said about "any given night." That's just not true.

Mike

I used to get GE tapes in the 80's saying things like "guard is not supporting you visually here" and wondering - "what the #### does that have to do with the drumline?" Did we get dinged by the visual GE guy at the same time?

I don't get it either, but it's been around for a while. GE is a bit of a mystery to me.

Edited August 15, 2012 by Grandpa

[mn trumpter guy]

Are you saying that judges should only evaluate the quality of the product being presented and not the style? If so, then you are also saying that a really old-school block-slip, mirror-image, high mark-time drill should be able to win DCI in 2013.

Maybe I'm a young snot-nosed kid, but I honestly do not see anything wrong with a show like that. I know it's old-school, and I understand new tools are available to visual designers, but 'use of modern tools' is not on the sheets.

According to the sheets, the only things evaluated are content and performance; if the content is effective and demanding, and it is performed well, then theoretically any kind of show should be able to win DCI in 2013.

I don't think it would, though. Which to me presents a problem; why shouldn't an old-school show which is effective and demanding score as highly as a new-school show which is equally effective and demanding?

EDIT: grammar

Edited August 15, 2012 by mn trumpter guy

[Kevin Powell]

I don't think it would, though. Which to me presents a problem; why shouldn't an old-school show which is effective and demanding score as highly as a new-school show which is equally effective and demanding?

That is the ONE question that keeps popping up and reason there is so much debate and talk on the matter. There is a way to fix the issue but everyone involved - FANS, CORPS, DCI - Need to be flexible, communicate, and work together to create a more balanced system that presents EVERY STYLE in a FAIR and balanced way.

[StuStu]

I'm just wandering into this conversation, but have a couple of random thoughts to throw in.

1) As for numbers management/point spreads - I've long wondered if nationals should be scored on an ordinal basis, i.e., the caption judges rank each corps without giving an actual score. The lowest average of ordinals across the judging panel determines the champion.

Recently, for example, I was looking at a recap where one GE judge had the corps in 4th, and another in 5th, but each gave the corps a 9.5. That doesn't seem right to me. I've never sat down and "run the numbers" for any particular situation to see if it would make a difference, but it's an interesting idea to me.

2) The one thing I think is missing in much of the discussion is the demand on individual performers. In terms of marching demands on the players, Crown's show this year was insane. No one will ever convince me that the Blue Devils show this year was anywhere near as demanding. I get a sense that this isn't as significant a factor under the current system.

3) Living in Indianapolis, I have tried to drum up (har har) as much support for DCI as I can. Tickets for these shows are expensive - if the audience is going to grow, there has to be a compelling product to ask lay people to spend that kind of cash. Take out former marching members, family/friends of current members, and marching band kids, and how big is the fan base? Do we want that fan base to grow?

This comes down to the well-worn question of art versus entertainment, and I certianly don't have an answer for how to balance the two. But I will say that what was given high "general effect" scores this year certainly doesn't translate to the "general public".

And I don't want to sound like I'm knocking BD. They were outrageous this year, I really enjoyed and appreciated their show. It is only the most recent example of leading edge design, and whether fair or not, will be held out as an example of what is good and bad about the artistic approach.

[skywhopper]

I'm honestly curious: what do the fans want? Do they want Carolina Crown to win 2012 DCI with a sub-Championship level Visual Program? Do they want a corps to win DCI that is not at clean as another corps?!

Please don't take this tack. This is obviously not what anyone is arguing. But your assertion that Crown had a "sub-Championship level visual program" is outrageous, and saying they were "not as clean" is silly. I would assert Crown was just as clean (they won as many performance captions as BD did), and anyway if clean were the only thing that mattered, why are design, responsibility, variety, and effect part of the sheets?

I think it's clear that anyone who's arguing Crown ought to have won probably thinks that BD's scores were too high and Crown's were too low, whether that's because of judges' preferences, poorly designed or enforced sheets, or what-have you. Even the GE judges didn't agree on the spread between BD and Crown, so I'm not sure why you're surprised that fans would also disagree with the particular scores.