supersop Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 This is very true. The judges can't seem to make up their minds. Just look at finals this year. At the top, two cleaner (and arguably easier, although I DO NOT see it that way) shows beat their competitors (BD over Crown and Phantom over Cadets). But further down in finals, we had a very difficult show with lots of dirt (BK) beat a squeaky clean Spirit. Just last year, a cleaner BD lost to a (slightly) dirtier Cadets, while a pretty darn clean Crown seemed to peak mid-season and fall to 4th. Thanks for doing the dirty work .. you read my ever lovin mind. You also left out Crossmen in 12th over BStars in 13th ... and the anomaly of Surf this year. Then you have to ultimately throw in the mix of Traditional excellence over up and comer status. Cavies over Scouts. BD over Crown. I think the one corps that got a somewhat fair read this year from top to bottom was Boston. I also think SCV was held back further than they deserved. But that's my taste speaking over common sense. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bchorn Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 (edited) Also, as it's been mentioned before, I suspect that Blue Devils show designs please PLENTY of crowds (I also suspect that you might be correct and BD's design staff wouldn't care about not pleasing simple minded fans) I'm not so sure that Blue Devils please plenty of crowds. At the Austin show last year when they had fan voting via text message, the Blue Devils were voted 7th by the fans. Also the rare fan vote highlights what I think why people are frustrated with the Blue Devils. The judges placed BD 3rd while the fans voted BD 7th. The BD had the largest disconnect between judges and fans at this show. Fan Vote Difference 1. Cavaliers 1 0 2. Cadets 2 0 3. Blue Devils 7 4 4. Carolina Crown 3 -1 5. Bluecoats 6 1 6. Phantom 4 -2 7. Santa Clara 8 1 8. Blue Stars 5 -3 Here's something else I noticed. If you look at blog from the finals last year, Boo said that rough 50% of the crowd stayed to watch the Cadets encore performance. However, this year, Boo blogged that only 10% of the crowd to watch the Blue Devils encore performance. That's a huge difference and I guarantee you that if Crown won a lot more than 10% would stayed. I was in the audience and the crowd was definitely rooting for Crown. Edited August 29, 2012 by bchorn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mn trumpter guy Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 I was in the audience and the crowd was definitely rooting for Crown. Not from where I was sitting! Then again... I was sitting basically in the middle of BDB. So that might explain things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bchorn Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 Not from where I was sitting! Then again... I was sitting basically in the middle of BDB. So that might explain things. Haha...I was in section 640 and the crowd definitely was rooting Crown. I'm sure people will say I'm biased but check out the finals blog. 10:10Michael Boo: HUGE audience reaction. The fans are really pulling for this corps, alá Phantom Regiment in 2008. It's like the audience is willing them to win. 10:10Mike Ferlazzo: Every year, there's a people's champ Michael, and even if Crown doesn't win the competitive title, they are clearly the people's champ this season. 10:16Mike Ferlazzo: AMAZING!!!! And the crowd, and Michael, are going nuts!! 10:16Michael Boo: Big standing ovation. 10:17Mike Ferlazzo: Just like in 2008 with Phantom, the crowd is trying to will Crown to victory. There are no similiar comments about the audience during the Blue Devils performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saxfreq1128 Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 I don't think it tells us anything about what the judges want. It's most definitely not about taking risks or thinking outside the box. Blue Devils' shows the last few years are clever wrappers for technical showcases, but they are as safe as can be. Here's our triple-tongue feature, here's our precision marching, here's our dance, here's our individual demand, here's our ripple toss, here's our unison toss, here's our posturing drum feature, here's our sequential drum solo feature. Here's our pretty brass section, here's our loud swinging brass section, here's our atonal brass section, here's our brass playing spread across the field, here's our unique guard equipment, here's our high-speed brass runs. Nothing is executed more often than necessary to get credit from the judges, but they hit all the de-facto compulsory design elements along the way. Amazing skill and precision? Yep. Clever and unique designs? Sure. Avoiding drum corps show design cliches? Well, some anyway. But risky? Not in the least. I think everything you say is fair. I just think it's true of any corps that has a reasonable chance at the championship/has one before. (The top 6, let's say.) You could do similar rundowns of Cadets, Crown, Cavs, etc etc etc shows. Here's our big brass hit for audience response. Here's our whiplash drill... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glory Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 I think the difficulty in analyzing/comprehending total results occurs when we look at an over-all score and try to break it down by "does cleaner beat more effective?" Remember that DCI is an activity that is judged by sub-captions. If two corps are comparable in talent it's almost certain that the more effective show will win out... I'm with you, but only to a point. GE is the wild card - at least where the fans are concerned. There tends to be a substantial consensus between fan and judge on the other three captions. The fans tend to endorse the judges' views on brass, percussion and visual. Where we disconnect is GE. Now you're right: The judges scores for GE (like the other captions) reflects an aggregate (versus the singular appraisal of any one fan). The problem DCI has is there is no transparency whatsoever to the GE captions and how they're scored. In my view, the Cesario would-be "entertainment" initiative has only confused the matter more. What I'm working up to is the scoring regime is relatively easy to understand in three of the four categories and rather murky in the fourth, which just happens to be the most valuable. So when BD, with its record of success, chooses not to present a program with wide artistic appeal while other contenders do, the chances for a championship disappointment are increased. HH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HockeyDad Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 Also, as it's been mentioned before, I suspect that Blue Devils show designs please PLENTY of crowds (I also suspect that you might be correct and BD's design staff wouldn't care about not pleasing simple minded fans) Thank you for finally putting it into words: Folks, if you didn't like BD's show this year, it's because YOU'RE SIMPLE MINDED. Gee, mister wizard, maybe you could give me a master class and teach me how to appreciate a show where you can't hear the brass for the first 2 minutes over the blaring voice over of some dude with a french accent. And how to appreciate song fragments. And yeah, I sure didn't "get" the uniform thing, it's so cerebral. How could one of such simple intellect ever understand? 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 I'm with you, but only to a point. GE is the wild card - at least where the fans are concerned. There tends to be a substantial consensus between fan and judge on the other three captions. The fans tend to endorse the judges' views on brass, percussion and visual. Where we disconnect is GE. Now you're right: The judges scores for GE (like the other captions) reflects an aggregate (versus the singular appraisal of any one fan). The problem DCI has is there is no transparency whatsoever to the GE captions and how they're scored. In my view, the Cesario would-be "entertainment" initiative has only confused the matter more. What I'm working up to is the scoring regime is relatively easy to understand in three of the four categories and rather murky in the fourth, which just happens to be the most valuable. So when BD, with its record of success, chooses not to present a program with wide artistic appeal while other contenders do, the chances for a championship disappointment are increased. HH the problem is GE is made up of three parts....intellectual, aesthetic and emotional. to me, it seems the most effective show should have all 3 liberally sprinkled into the show. but it's judged that even if the show is 90% just intellectual, that's box 5. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersop Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 the problem is GE is made up of three parts....intellectual, aesthetic and emotional. to me, it seems the most effective show should have all 3 liberally sprinkled into the show. but it's judged that even if the show is 90% just intellectual, that's box 5. TRUTH! Ream just won teh DCP'zzzzzzzzzz. Seriously, I totally agree with you Jeff. That's why I hate the GE caption the way it currently stands. You'll never EVER get 2 judges to completely agree or score the sub captions of GE the same .... taking into account the full description and requirements of that subcaption and scoring it properly. It just doesn't happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catan Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 Thank you for finally putting it into words: Folks, if you didn't like BD's show this year, it's because YOU'RE SIMPLE MINDED. Gee, mister wizard, maybe you could give me a master class and teach me how to appreciate a show where you can't hear the brass for the first 2 minutes over the blaring voice over of some dude with a french accent. And how to appreciate song fragments. And yeah, I sure didn't "get" the uniform thing, it's so cerebral. How could one of such simple intellect ever understand? What? The vocals were very quiet compared to the monstrous BD hornline, imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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