Chat Room for Prelims and Semis!

[GREENBLUE]

I still can't believe the credit that BD is being given in guard....I just don't get it. I've said it in other threads and I'll say it here:

As much as I appreciate BD's guard -I just can't agree that they have more difficulty or responsability than Crown and Vanguard. Equipement wise alone - 1/2 of BD's guard doesn't even touch equipement until a good 4 - 5 minutes into the show. I like their use of hoops, and semi circles and balls, but compare that to what Crown and Vanguard is being asked to do on weapon (almost constantly) along with the body / movement / equipement triad that they have (BD concentrates on one or the other) and then look at their comparative flag books......and BD should be a 3rd place guard program at this point with achievement being higher than content.

Sad thing is that they'll still be in first tonight as Debbie is judging. It's kind of a shame really.

Later,

Mike

If that's indeed the case....then how does Phantom score so high? The girls don't use any type of equipment or props for at least 5 minutes of the show.

[btown50]

I just fail to see how using other props is seen as an increase in difficulty. Properly manipulating a rifle / sabre or flag is much more difficult than manipulating a half circle. Crown's sabre book in the opener alone should be enough to guarantee them the guard trophy.

I also don't agree that this is a direct result of WGI - as in WGI there are clear guidelines set as to what is considered equipment and what isn't and their usage in shows - if anything WGI is more about traditional equipment use than DCI is now.

Later,

Mike

they get points on creativity and how well they execute it.judges want to see more than flags, sabres, & rifles.There is a reason why judges put them 1st. When you step out of the ordinary, people give credit when it's due. You might think Crown guard is good but the judges think different.

[DarkHorner]

I just fail to see how using other props is seen as an increase in difficulty. Properly manipulating a rifle / sabre or flag is much more difficult than manipulating a half circle. Crown's sabre book in the opener alone should be enough to guarantee them the guard trophy.

I also don't agree that this is a direct result of WGI - as in WGI there are clear guidelines set as to what is considered equipment and what isn't and their usage in shows - if anything WGI is more about traditional equipment use than DCI is now.

Later,

Mike

Let me start by saying I'm not arguing and just saying why the judges score the guard like they do, and for what it's worth, I do believe that the top few guard are basically the same level, and that judging comes down to the judge's taste that night. Also, yes WGI requires 3.5 minutes of authorized equipment time in a 4-7.5 minute performance, but the use of props (which is what the half circles would be categorized as, as opposed to authorized equipment like flags, rifles, and sabers) is widespread. And as I said, it really depends on the judge's taste. Also, pay attention to the guard more in BD's show, and it will be obvious that they can work equipment extremely well (one instance that comes to mind is an extremely high rifle toss from the entire guard, spread in a circle around the corps proper that is absolutely perfect in it's execution).

And yes, Crown's guard is incredible. If I had it my way, BD and Crown's guards would tie each night because they are both some of the best guards I've seen in recent years; they just have different design philosophies.

[ShainaBassoon]

There's something I don't think I understand and I've noticed it since I went to Allentown. Is there any kind of score impact on the way BD uses their synth? Not the effects or all of that, but the pure "We are playing doughnut notes that are exactly what our low brass is playing at every single impact point." It was very loud in Allentown. One of the loudest synths over the two nights. Crown and BD have been up at the top all year, as they should be, and I'm not trying to insult or overly praise one corps or the other. It's obvious they both have fantastic brass lines. So I don't understand why BD uses their synth as they do. When it comes to last night, I won't talk about Big Loud and Live because that could very well be their own sound mixing, I noticed they weren't getting the voices very clear when Crown was performing and jacked up the pit about halfway through the show. I just want to know, well really why BD is choosing to do it with a line like they have, and if that synth is masking half their brass half the time is it going to show up in the scores. Again, not saying they aren't a great brass corps and you can tell that when they aren't doubling a section with synth. Just something that confuses me.

[DCI-86]

Well, one reason that they are placing so high is the style and judging has been influenced by WGI. Being able to use a rifle or flag properly is seen as the basics of the basics. BD uses weird, abstract props that aren't designed specifically for guard use. This is why guard judges see it as an increase in difficulty and design. As long as WGI keeps influencing DCI, we will continue to see corps move more towards this more abstract style as far as guard goes.

I dont agree with this statement at all. You don't see any of the top groups in WGI doing what BD, they spin rifles, sabre, flag and dance. If anything, its BD's influence that is enabling them to win guard, and perhaps the fear of not putting them first because of their staff (who basically wrote the judging system for WGI and DCI guard).

What I don't understand is their excellence scores compared to Crown and SCV who have both been considerably cleaner and less breaks/drops (yes I know excellence is based on content but I would argue that both Crown and SCV have more content than BD).

At the end of the day i don't think any judges have the courage to NOT put BD's guard first.

[DarkHorner]

There's something I don't think I understand and I've noticed it since I went to Allentown. Is there any kind of score impact on the way BD uses their synth? Not the effects or all of that, but the pure "We are playing doughnut notes that are exactly what our low brass is playing at every single impact point." It was very loud in Allentown. One of the loudest synths over the two nights. Crown and BD have been up at the top all year, as they should be, and I'm not trying to insult or overly praise one corps or the other. It's obvious they both have fantastic brass lines. So I don't understand why BD uses their synth as they do. When it comes to last night, I won't talk about Big Loud and Live because that could very well be their own sound mixing, I noticed they weren't getting the voices very clear when Crown was performing and jacked up the pit about halfway through the show. I just want to know, well really why BD is choosing to do it with a line like they have, and if that synth is masking half their brass half the time is it going to show up in the scores. Again, not saying they aren't a great brass corps and you can tell that when they aren't doubling a section with synth. Just something that confuses me.

It confuses me as well. I hate when corps double sections with synth, but it is more rampant than just BD. Phantom is the worst for me this year. I would say how bad the synth overpowers depends on how close you are to the box and just how well the staff running the mixer happens to be at getting a good blend that night. I personally think that synth has viable uses, but doubling brass is not one of them, and I would like to see that fall out of practice.

[Tekneek]

If only I had the financial means...I could march a bunch of props and just let the synth play the entire show.

[corpsband]

they get points on creativity and how well they execute it.judges want to see more than flags, sabres, & rifles.There is a reason why judges put them 1st. When you step out of the ordinary, people give credit when it's due. You might think Crown guard is good but the judges think different.

this is fine if you actually execute it.

compare the execution on ball and hoop to crown's execution on flag, sabre and rifle. compare bds flag rifle sabre book to crown.

oops.

if you're going to bring new equipment in to the activity, your execution (timing, accuracy, spatial relationships, ensemble uniformity) better be just as good as on the traditional equipment. if it's not -- guess what? you're dirty. bd's guard is dirty,dirty, dirty on all the RG stuff. if it's about WHAT and HOW, the spread between their guards should be bigger than the spread between their percussion lines.

unfortunately the guard sheet lets judges just completely ignore the performers. if bd's guard executed RG stuff like an actual RG team i'd be singing their praises.

crowns guard spins and dances a ridiculous book very very clean. they're literally doing vocabulary that no one else in DCI even attempts.

bd's guard gets credit for...trying new things?

it's a sad state of affairs. the guard caption judging in DCI is an embarrassment.

Edited August 9, 2013 by corpsband

[7567BC]

I'm not sure I agree with the boneheaded comment, more of a calculated risk based on the effectiveness of the mood they were going for. There was a time - specifically in the 80s - where Boston, and Madison for that matter - didn't really care about scores and went out to simply perform culminating in Boston's 1985 show where they took a penalty at every show for using a synthesizer.

And to your ps. they must have a zipper or something on the arms of the uniform - during the ballad when half the hornline lies on their backs to support the other half of the hornline - on one of the recent fan network videos, you can see them uncuff the arms to show the bit of red. At the end of the ballad they cuff the arms again. Pretty awesome effect I think, I actually wish they could do some more of this throughout the show.

To clarify; Boston used the synth only once. At prelims in Madison for Axel "F". There is a whole backstory to it, but that doesn't matter. We knew what we were getting by using it. The penalty had no affect on position. The powder thing I was surprised at. more suprised at a penalty for something that I though occurred before the went on the field. Hope they don't do it again. I personally don't like giving away the point. But I think they'll Rise. I believe the exposing of red during the show is intentional.

[luv4corps]

here in Lucas

troopers got a huge standing O from the starburst on / great show from them

Fans: please don't stand up and go crazy until after the Sunburst... the clapping drown out the big Battle Hymn impact moment. People were excited just anticipating it. Really, that's pretty cool.