corpsband Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 You pointed out the exceptions, not the rule. Used to be the other way around. ..and maybe that's why they were 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. See my previous post about BD and their masterful arranging, which also praises Klesch and Shaw as some of the best around. The rest of the corps sound the same? Really? Hmm.... And it seems as if DCI is rewarding three very unique styles. So it doesn't appear as if they're incentivizing homogeneity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjeffeory Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 (edited) The rest of the corps sound the same? Really? Hmm.... And it seems as if DCI is rewarding three very unique styles. So it doesn't appear as if they're incentivizing homogeneity. Same? Not exactly the SAME, but similar arranging and basic sounds with many crops. Similar instrumentation too. See any french horn bugles around anymore (lots of corps used them)? See any marching alto horns around anymore (BD used to have 'em)? See very many flugel lines ( other than Crossmen who I heard don't have them this year). See any tromboniums? These are all viable instruments that aren't being used very much. When Cadets, then Star went all mellophones and Started winning brass rings, everyone homogenized on Mellophones. DCI is rewarding 4 or 5 different arranging styles more than other styles and other corps that are placing lower are emulating aspects of these styles. I can see it, and many others can see it too but other people don't explain it very well. I know I'm not getting very technical about the specifics, but I don't understand why you are just summarily dismissing it. There are years where I couldn't tell Colts (last year), Pacific Crest, Crossmen (when they don't have Chuck arrange) or many groups apart until seeing them. Before Klesch got to Crown, I couldn't tell them apart from Boston or another corps in their relative placement grouping if I wasn't looking at them and being told who they were. Now, I couldn't tell Phantom from Boston, if I didn't know what they were playing, just from listening to them. Used to be most corps had a "sound" to them, that was unique to them specifically, to go with a unique visual style and a uniform. Maybe you started watching the activity after this change, but it is there. This isn't mass insanity or mass delusion. It's pretty obvious that the arrangers have changed their style to match what they perceive as being rewarded on the sheets. Even Bocook arranges differently now for the Cadets than he has before. Klesch is so talented and writes so clear that he doesn't have to change too much from the past. When I hear Crown, I know it's not BD. Same thing with Downey, though he changed style a bit around '94 and I don't know how much of BD's music he currently arranges. ...but when I hear BD, I KNOW it's them without knowing anything else. Naffier has a signature arranging style for the Crossmen too. I also know if it's Blooo just by hearing them play. ...but if someone actually sat down and took the enormous amount of time it would take to sit down and perform a scientific analysis of the music, and explain to everyone exactly what type of chords are being played, et cetera, we'd find that there is something that make corps today sound so similar, we'd find that drum corps and marching band arrangements ARE more homogenized from 1st - 20th than ever. ...maybe it's because the arrangers move around to various corps. Maybe it's because they were educated under similar systems than the arrangers before. But it's real. Maybe it's because of the sheets. I dunno. I mean, I know when I hear a Jimmer arrangement, it sounds like Star to me. When he arranged for Blue Knights in 2010, it brought back memories of Star, even though he has arranged for Blue Knights, Troopers, Star, Cadets, and other corps. When I hear a Klesch arrangement, I used to think of the Cadets first, but now I think of Crown too. It's a signature sound. When I hear a Downey arrangement, I think Blue Devils. When I hear a Shaw arrangement, I think Phantom ( still ). When I hear a Robert Smith arrangement, I mostly still identify with Suncoast Sound, the Magic of Orlando. I don't quite feel the Trooper or Madison vibe. When I hear Saucedo, I still think Cavaliers, not Blue Stars... When I hear Doug Thrower, I think Bluecoats.... When I hear a Naffier arrangement, I immediately think Colts and Crossmen. When I hear a Boerma arrangement, I think Madison Scouts. So when I heard Spirit last year, it sounds a LOT like the Madison Scouts of old. Bocook = Cadets, but used to have a more distinctive sound in the past, but voicings are still clear as a bell. Poulan = He's written for so many different corps and he tended to write for each corps differently in the past, but does have a sound that is unique for him and has developed some tendencies that make corps sound a little similar after 2003. Probably dues to what was expected on the sheets, cause this guy is a wonderful arranger and has arranged some gems. Point being that with the guys above, I can mostly tell their styles apart, but with most of the other corps, they just sound very similar. Whoever arranges for Oregon Crusaders does a good job of being unique too. So what does that leave? 10 out of 25 or so corps that I follow sound pretty unique to me, but the rest of them are kind "samey sounding" a LOT of the times and you can't tell them apart so easily. It's worse in some years than others, but I didn't really notice it starting to being a "thing" until the late 90s. So maybe I've just got an idea in my head based on the past and some really bad years. As you know, the older we get the more the years and shows blend together, but I'm not ready to think that just yet... Anyway, THIS is VERY off topic... BD doesn't suffer from this. Edited May 11, 2014 by jjeffeory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 Same? Not exactly the SAME, but similar arranging and basic sounds with many crops. Similar instrumentation too. See any french horn bugles around anymore (lots of corps used them)? See any marching alto horns around anymore (BD used to have 'em)? See very many flugel lines ( other than Crossmen who I heard don't have them this year). See any tromboniums? These are all viable instruments that aren't being used very much. When Cadets, then Star went all mellophones and Started winning brass rings, everyone homogenized on Mellophones. DCI is rewarding 4 or 5 different arranging styles more than other styles and other corps that are placing lower are emulating aspects of these styles. I can see it, and many others can see it too but other people don't explain it very well. I know I'm not getting very technical about the specifics, but I don't understand why you are just summarily dismissing it. There are years where I couldn't tell Colts (last year), Pacific Crest, Crossmen (when they don't have Chuck arrange) or many groups apart until seeing them. Before Klesch got to Crown, I couldn't tell them apart from Boston or another corps in their relative placement grouping if I wasn't looking at them and being told who they were. Now, I couldn't tell Phantom from Boston, if I didn't know what they were playing, just from listening to them. Used to be most corps had a "sound" to them, that was unique to them specifically, to go with a unique visual style and a uniform. Maybe you started watching the activity after this change, but it is there. This isn't mass insanity or mass delusion. It's pretty obvious that the arrangers have changed their style to match what they perceive as being rewarded on the sheets. Even Bocook arranges differently now for the Cadets than he has before. Klesch is so talented and writes so clear that he doesn't have to change too much from the past. When I hear Crown, I know it's not BD. Same thing with Downey, though he changed style a bit around '94 and I don't know how much of BD's music he currently arranges. ...but when I hear BD, I KNOW it's them without knowing anything else. Naffier has a signature arranging style for the Crossmen too. I also know if it's Blooo just by hearing them play. ...but if someone actually sat down and took the enormous amount of time it would take to sit down and perform a scientific analysis of the music, and explain to everyone exactly what type of chords are being played, et cetera, we'd find that there is something that make corps today sound so similar, we'd find that drum corps and marching band arrangements ARE more homogenized from 1st - 20th than ever. ...maybe it's because the arrangers move around to various corps. Maybe it's because they were educated under similar systems than the arrangers before. But it's real. Maybe it's because of the sheets. I dunno. I mean, I know when I hear a Jimmer arrangement, it sounds like Star to me. When he arranged for Blue Knights in 2010, it brought back memories of Star, even though he has arranged for Blue Knights, Troopers, Star, Cadets, and other corps. When I hear a Klesch arrangement, I used to think of the Cadets first, but now I think of Crown too. It's a signature sound. When I hear a Downey arrangement, I think Blue Devils. When I hear a Shaw arrangement, I think Phantom ( still ). When I hear a Robert Smith arrangement, I mostly still identify with Suncoast Sound, the Magic of Orlando. I don't quite feel the Trooper or Madison vibe. When I hear Saucedo, I still think Cavaliers, not Blue Stars... When I hear Doug Thrower, I think Bluecoats.... When I hear a Naffier arrangement, I immediately think Colts and Crossmen. When I hear a Boerma arrangement, I think Madison Scouts. So when I heard Spirit last year, it sounds a LOT like the Madison Scouts of old. Bocook = Cadets, but used to have a more distinctive sound in the past, but voicings are still clear as a bell. Point being that with the guys above, I can mostly tell their styles apart, but with most of the other corps, they just sound very similar. Whoever arranges for Oregon Crusaders does a good job of being unique too. So what does that leave? 10 out of 25 or so corps that I follow sound pretty unique to me, but the rest of them are kind "samey sounding" a LOT of the times and you can't tell them apart so easily. It's worse in some years than others, but I didn't really notice it starting to being a "thing" until the late 90s. So maybe I've just got an idea in my head based on the past and some really bad years. As you know, the older we get the more the years and shows blend together, but I'm not ready to think that just yet... Anyway, THIS is VERY off topic... BD doesn't suffer from this. people should love Madison then this year with the new sound of trombones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjeffeory Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 people should love Madison then this year with the new sound of trombones. Let's hope! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 (edited) Whoever arranges for Oregon Crusaders does a good job of being unique too. So what does that leave? 10 out of 25 or so corps that I follow sound pretty unique to me, but the rest of them are kind "samey sounding" a LOT of the times and you can't tell them apart so easily. It's worse in some years than others, but I didn't really notice it starting to being a "thing" until the late 90s. So maybe I've just got an idea in my head based on the past and some really bad years. As you know, the older we get the more the years and shows blend together, but I'm not ready to think that just yet... Anyway, THIS is VERY off topic... BD doesn't suffer from this. Alright I can agree with this. 10 out 25 being unique is a lot different than just 3 (and I thinked you nailed everyone who sound different to me as well. I've been listening for a long time -- way back when each corps did sound different. Maybe because (back then) every corps seemed to have their own arranger. And those guys came from very distinct backgrounds. Currently you have arrangers who've studied under *other* arrangers and maybe even a 'generation' back before that -- it's not surprising some guys sound a lot like their mentors. And currently you have arrangers writing for multiple corps -- so of course *their* style appears multiple time on the field. So maybe it's not competive "copy-catting" at all -- maybe it's just where we are right now. I think as some of the older "names" start stepping down, we might hear some fresh sounds. But opportunities are few and far between just due to the availability of arranging gigs. Maybe this is another place where MikeD's "a lot of this has migrated to HS Bands" would also apply. There are a LOT of very distinct sounds in the MB ranks. And yeah we're way off topic so if the OP wants us to stop I will. Edited May 9, 2014 by corpsband 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 Alright I can agree with this. 10 out 25 being unique is a lot different than just 3 (and I thinked you nailed everyone who sound different to me as well. So taking this, and what the post said you replied to, we can all agree that the best arrangers in the activity have a unique sound, while the rest not-so-much. Also, that the corps with more latitude to play with (have more talent, more judge respect, more success to build on, etc) are also able to take more risks, forge their own sound/style, etc while those on the lower end of the scale are still trying to make a name for themselves, trying to get their corps better, etc. Is this really some sort of mind-blowing surprise: that the best of the best are unique and go their own way while the lower-tiered arrangers are possibly mimicking the best of the best trying to move up the ranks? You see this visually all of the time as well, and I think in an adjudicated activity there will always be this sort of thing. People look at the past with rose-tinted glasses, but with even more corps in the early 80s (for example), it's not like we had 50 corps that all had a unique sound (though maybe by "unique" one might call bring, tinny, and crass "unique" and be correct). To add to that, I think any key instruments, which are seemingly easier to play consistently in tune, have leveled the playing field a bit and have helped more brass lines sound really good (and thus potentially more "homogenized" sound, if we're saying a high quality brass sound = "homogenized"). This activity has always seemed to have the upper echelon leading the way with everyone else playing catch-up one way or another 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quietcity Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 (edited) In the 70's, a lot of top corps had distinct sounding brass lines, if by distinct you mean bad. SCV won DCI in 1978 with a horn line that is a bit painful to listen to, due to the sopranos having a pinched, thin, overly-bright sound. Phantom that same year had a heavy, hammering quality in their middle and baritone voices. Madison in 78 sounds rather breathless much of the show. Many corps back then got blatty, ragged and distorted when playing loudly. In the lower end of the top 12, horn lines struggled with clean articulation and simply playing in tune. BD was kind of a miracle back in the 1970s in that they had a brass line that played with good intonation and in a musical style. So do horn lines sound more the same these days? Sure, because they are all so much better than way back when. There are many ways to play badly, but only a few ways to play well. Edited May 9, 2014 by quietcity 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 psssssssst: it's tipped this way from the 70s with 27th lancers, PR, Bridgemen, Star,, they all had great music programs but knew visually what had to be done. I remember wayyyyyy back when as a horn player , I was told by a very wise visual icon in the activity, " visual is where it's going" get the experience now and run with it. I dropped my horn after several years and never looked back. Not, saying that was for everyone but ceratinly worked for me. Thank You George Zingali yes it started tripping, but I really dont feel that the music took the backsat until 2002 Cavies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 Hmm.. 2014's 1st place , 2nd, and 3rd place couldn't have been more different in their approaches to arranging. Yep -- everyone sounds the same. I know your employer may disagree, but there's more to DCI than the top few. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 Same? Not exactly the SAME, but similar arranging and basic sounds with many crops. Similar instrumentation too. See any french horn bugles around anymore (lots of corps used them)? See any marching alto horns around anymore (BD used to have 'em)? See very many flugel lines ( other than Crossmen who I heard don't have them this year). See any tromboniums? These are all viable instruments that aren't being used very much. When Cadets, then Star went all mellophones and Started winning brass rings, everyone homogenized on Mellophones. DCI is rewarding 4 or 5 different arranging styles more than other styles and other corps that are placing lower are emulating aspects of these styles. I can see it, and many others can see it too but other people don't explain it very well. I know I'm not getting very technical about the specifics, but I don't understand why you are just summarily dismissing it. There are years where I couldn't tell Colts (last year), Pacific Crest, Crossmen (when they don't have Chuck arrange) or many groups apart until seeing them. Before Klesch got to Crown, I couldn't tell them apart from Boston or another corps in their relative placement grouping if I wasn't looking at them and being told who they were. Now, I couldn't tell Phantom from Boston, if I didn't know what they were playing, just from listening to them. Used to be most corps had a "sound" to them, that was unique to them specifically, to go with a unique visual style and a uniform. Maybe you started watching the activity after this change, but it is there. This isn't mass insanity or mass delusion. It's pretty obvious that the arrangers have changed their style to match what they perceive as being rewarded on the sheets. Even Bocook arranges differently now for the Cadets than he has before. Klesch is so talented and writes so clear that he doesn't have to change too much from the past. When I hear Crown, I know it's not BD. Same thing with Downey, though he changed style a bit around '94 and I don't know how much of BD's music he currently arranges. ...but when I hear BD, I KNOW it's them without knowing anything else. Naffier has a signature arranging style for the Crossmen too. I also know if it's Blooo just by hearing them play. ...but if someone actually sat down and took the enormous amount of time it would take to sit down and perform a scientific analysis of the music, and explain to everyone exactly what type of chords are being played, et cetera, we'd find that there is something that make corps today sound so similar, we'd find that drum corps and marching band arrangements ARE more homogenized from 1st - 20th than ever. ...maybe it's because the arrangers move around to various corps. Maybe it's because they were educated under similar systems than the arrangers before. But it's real. Maybe it's because of the sheets. I dunno. I mean, I know when I hear a Jimmer arrangement, it sounds like Star to me. When he arranged for Blue Knights in 2010, it brought back memories of Star, even though he has arranged for Blue Knights, Troopers, Star, Cadets, and other corps. When I hear a Klesch arrangement, I used to think of the Cadets first, but now I think of Crown too. It's a signature sound. When I hear a Downey arrangement, I think Blue Devils. When I hear a Shaw arrangement, I think Phantom ( still ). When I hear a Robert Smith arrangement, I mostly still identify with Suncoast Sound, the Magic of Orlando. I don't quite feel the Trooper or Madison vibe. When I hear Saucedo, I still think Cavaliers, not Blue Stars... When I hear Doug Thrower, I think Bluecoats.... When I hear a Naffier arrangement, I immediately think Colts and Crossmen. When I hear a Boerma arrangement, I think Madison Scouts. So when I heard Spirit last year, it sounds a LOT like the Madison Scouts of old. Bocook = Cadets, but used to have a more distinctive sound in the past, but voicings are still clear as a bell. Point being that with the guys above, I can mostly tell their styles apart, but with most of the other corps, they just sound very similar. Whoever arranges for Oregon Crusaders does a good job of being unique too. So what does that leave? 10 out of 25 or so corps that I follow sound pretty unique to me, but the rest of them are kind "samey sounding" a LOT of the times and you can't tell them apart so easily. It's worse in some years than others, but I didn't really notice it starting to being a "thing" until the late 90s. So maybe I've just got an idea in my head based on the past and some really bad years. As you know, the older we get the more the years and shows blend together, but I'm not ready to think that just yet... Anyway, THIS is VERY off topic... BD doesn't suffer from this. it's more than just sound. it's the formula...a few bars, build to hold, a few bars, build to hold, insert drum break, a few bars, build to hold....even drum breaks sound more and more alike, with all of the prerequisite body moves and layering of players in. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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