Tenoris4Jazz Posted August 29, 2016 Share Posted August 29, 2016 If bands are unable to use them, and they're not taught in schools, how do we expect to hear Drum Corps play them at the level that the Bb horns are? Sorry, but I think if we switched back to G's the level of the performances would be hindered. I always thought the level of excellence came from the performer working harder, not making it easier to perform without the extra work. Sounds a lot like schools raising test scores by making the tests easier rather than teaching the kids to do more studying on their own. When my peers were marching DCI, they worked for hours on their drum corps responsibilities, IN ADDITION to their high school and college responsibilities. Maybe if we really want to hear great horn lines again, we need to re-emphasize the music aspect of drum corps and pull back the out-of-control visuals. Also, I saw where someone mentioned losing an entire voice of players because they couldn't play and do the drill at the same time. Well, either work harder at playing or scale back the drill. If we've reached the point where playing your horn gets in the way of marching the drill, then we've gone way too far on the emphasis of visual over music. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fran Haring Posted August 29, 2016 Share Posted August 29, 2016 (edited) I stood in front of Raiders' brass arc at the Bayonne, NJ DCA show a few weeks ago, and was *very* impressed at the sound the Andalucia equipment produces, even given the corps' small compliment of 22 brass. The Bb soprano buigle sound was very evident, and I could hear the potential of what they might sound like with a larger line. The rest of the horns sounded very good as well. I wonder if some DCA lines will take a look at these instruments. I can think of at least two DCA lines... both with 30-plus horns...who have great teaching staffs who get the most out of their players. I can only imagine what those staffs and players could do with these Andalucia horns. Edited August 29, 2016 by Fran Haring 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Holland Posted August 29, 2016 Share Posted August 29, 2016 I always thought the level of excellence came from the performer working harder, not making it easier to perform without the extra work. Sounds a lot like schools raising test scores by making the tests easier rather than teaching the kids to do more studying on their own. When my peers were marching DCI, they worked for hours on their drum corps responsibilities, IN ADDITION to their high school and college responsibilities. Maybe if we really want to hear great horn lines again, we need to re-emphasize the music aspect of drum corps and pull back the out-of-control visuals. Also, I saw where someone mentioned losing an entire voice of players because they couldn't play and do the drill at the same time. Well, either work harder at playing or scale back the drill. If we've reached the point where playing your horn gets in the way of marching the drill, then we've gone way too far on the emphasis of visual over music. to an extent. There's a reason that pro players utilize top level horns to do what they do. Jiggs Whigham uses a lightweight slide and bell so that he can fret notes cleaner and faster and be in tune while doing so. He doesn't have to focus on the basics with a horn that plays better in tune and gives him a clearer articulation. So he can do his job better. Wayne Bergeron plays on a 8335 because it gives him cleaner articulations, doesn't hinder his fingers, and he can color it to whatever he's playing. If he had a beat up old student model, could he do the same things, sure... but he'd have to work harder to keep it in tune, and would really have to work the valves to do the same things. better tools make your job easier. whether its drafting on a computer, welding pipe, or playing a trumpet. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
runner Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 (edited) In response to this.... The biggest difference between the trumpet and soprano is the "wideness" of the sound. For those who are confused with the difference, you can youtube 1986 Blue Devils and listen to their closer Spanish Fantasy, or 1988 Madison Scouts' Malaguena. Listen carefully to the loud cords. When you listen to modern day drum corps such and Coats and Crown, the trumpet is way up there, and they sound like a layer of voice is missing between the Trumpets and Mellophone. When you listen 86 BD and 88 Scouts, you can hear the Soprano, but they blended perfectly with the alto voices with no noticeable gap. The effect is that famous wall of sound without annoyance of the Bb trumpets sticking out on their own. "sound like a layer of voice is missing between the Trumpets and Mellophone" The following is a case study to that point. Of note, same brass arranger, very similar placement of the mic. 2002 Phantom Regiment (last year of G-bugles) to 2003 Phantom Regiment (B-flat and F horns). Pay close attention to when the 2003 hornline gets loud at the end, at ~ 3:40, and you should very clearly hear the WIDENING of sound he is talking about. 2002 Phantom... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EYqS6et-E0 2003 Phantom.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CN55wZY36cc -Discuss.... Edited August 30, 2016 by runner 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedrick Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 interesting thread - what kind of money do corps spend on their instruments? Are Bb/F horns replaced each year? How often are they rotated/replaced? Would it be financially feasible to switch out an entire hornline back to G bugles? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liahona Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 interesting thread - what kind of money do corps spend on their instruments? Are Bb/F horns replaced each year? How often are they rotated/replaced? Would it be financially feasible to switch out an entire hornline back to G bugles? The point here is NOT switching back to G-bugles IMO...that will probably never happen....we are recently specifically talking about the trumpet voice in the ensemble causing a "gap" on top of the rest of the ensemble...between the trumpets and mellophone voices of the brass choir....and these horns addressing that...which ultimately should increase the entire ensemble sound with out synthetic electronic enhancements... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 I always thought the level of excellence came from the performer working harder, not making it easier to perform without the extra work. There is no reason that the hardware being used should be something the players have to fight with in order to get a good sound. Working harder on perfecting the performance, on playing difficult music, etc...is one thing. The instrument itself should not put roadblocks in the way of a good sound. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liahona Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 (edited) There is no reason that the hardware being used should be something the players have to fight with in order to get a good sound. Working harder on perfecting the performance, on playing difficult music, etc...is one thing. The instrument itself should not put roadblocks in the way of a good sound. Exactly! It's similar to trumpet performers getting rid of that old Bach 7C mouth piece in favor of a Karl Hammond (6ML for example)...just changing mouthpieces you'll see the tone and accuracy increase over night IMO... Edited August 30, 2016 by Liahona Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subcritical Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 In response to this.... "sound like a layer of voice is missing between the Trumpets and Mellophone" The following is a case study to that point. Of note, same brass arranger, very similar placement of the mic. 2002 Phantom Regiment (last year of G-bugles) to 2003 Phantom Regiment (B-flat and F horns). Pay close attention to when the 2003 hornline gets loud at the end, at ~ 3:40, and you should very clearly hear the WIDENING of sound he is talking about. 2002 Phantom... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EYqS6et-E0 2003 Phantom.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CN55wZY36cc -Discuss.... Spectral analysis of the two recordings, at :55-:57 and 4:20-4:25 The x-axis is frequency (hz), (think a-440, etc) Disclaimer: not an audio engineer (or a musician), so I don't actually know what I'm talking about 2002 2003 Seems hard to compare those two examples with the drop off in frequencies above 5000hz in the 2002 example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwillis35 Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 I always thought the level of excellence came from the performer working harder, not making it easier to perform without the extra work. Sounds a lot like schools raising test scores by making the tests easier rather than teaching the kids to do more studying on their own. When my peers were marching DCI, they worked for hours on their drum corps responsibilities, IN ADDITION to their high school and college responsibilities. Maybe if we really want to hear great horn lines again, we need to re-emphasize the music aspect of drum corps and pull back the out-of-control visuals. Also, I saw where someone mentioned losing an entire voice of players because they couldn't play and do the drill at the same time. Well, either work harder at playing or scale back the drill. If we've reached the point where playing your horn gets in the way of marching the drill, then we've gone way too far on the emphasis of visual over music. Your comments here make it sound as though we should give every kid an average-at-best instrument and tell them to suck-it-up. As if anything better would do the work for them and we want the kid to do the work. It's a faulty assumption to be sure, one that is fraught with misunderstanding. Professional musicians play on the best instruments. They often play on instruments that are custom made or modified to their liking. They do not play on cheap and poorly made instruments. Woodwind, brass, percussion, string, piano, and even electronic musicians (synths, bass, guitar) who wish to play professionally or semi-professionally do not play on crap. A talented and professional concert pianist is going to want to play on a Steinway Grand. Maybe a good Yamaha or Bosendorfer (which are better for chamber music), but a Steinway is the best sounding for major theater concert-level performing. A 9-foot grand can cost $125,000 or more. But they are worth it. The pianist still has to do the work, using their fingers to play the keys, which are weighted much like other concert pianos. Same for the pedals. But the sound...WOW. Brass players play on all kinds of models for different types of music. I play trombone. If I'm doing lead in a big band I prefer a King 2B or a Kanstul 1602B. If I'm playing 2nd part I prefer a Kanstul 1606 or a Bach 16. If I'm playing symphony (have a concert this weekend) I prefer a large-bore (.547) with an f-attachment, usually a custom Edwards or a Getzen with axial-flow valve and open wrap. If I'm playing Mozart Requiem then I prefer a .525 bore horn like the Bach 36 with no trigger. Why so many instruments? Because they all fit a specific need. Yet all of them require me to playing into a mouthpiece, to produce the best tone possible, to know how to use the slide and have the best technique, and to articulate and phrase professionally (single tongue, double tongue, lip slurs, arpeggios, long tone sustains, control in all registers, dynamic control and flow of phrases, and on and on). Playing one instrument for all of these ensemble types and music styles would seem foolish, and playing on cheap instruments may be fine for beginners but not for pros. There is no trumpet, trombone, horn, euph, baritone, or tuba out there that is going to be modified to such a degree that an average player all of a sudden becomes Maynard Ferguson or J.J. Johnson or Joe Alessi. You can give a poor player the best equipment and they are still a poor player. A truly excellent player can play a cheap Bundy and still make it sound good, but what's the point of that. Why not play something better and make it sound phenomenal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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