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2 minutes ago, kdaddy said:

I would agree that Phantom Regiment is a 7th-ish place corps. And in 2019, I would kill for 7th place! They clearly aren't demonstrating they can do that.

I bemoaned the design direction the corps was taking from 2013-2015, but after listening to those shows in the last few days, they are BRILLIANT compared to 2016-2018. Good source music, solid arranging, and solid visuals. The trend in placement is just an indicator of bad design decisions all around. And pretty soon, I'll be saying "remember how solid the drill was in 2016 and how good the guard was in 2017, back when the corps was in the top 12?" 

Many of us have said for years that the students are outperforming what they're given. That's not commentary on design vs performance scores, but just generally that the students pull out all the stops and let their talent shine through. But soon enough (or perhaps already), that won't be the case. You finish in 9th and 11th in back-to-back years, and 2008 (or 2013, the last top six finish) is a distant memory. There could soon be a combination of "bad design" and "designing down to the talent level"...

For me, I see a huge design drop from 2013 to 2014. Yes, '13, '14, '15 and '16 were leaps and bounds better than 2019. I don't see Regiment as a 7th place corps, I see them as a corps that will be fighting to make top 12.

No one will ever be able to try and convince me Regiment wasn't massively more talented than Mandarins last year. That's what a great design vs a subpar design can do. It's the same reason why Regiment lost to Vanguard, Bluecoats, Boston and Blue Stars in 2009. A more talented corps finished lower than 4 less talented corps due to design alone. 

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6 hours ago, Mello Dude said:

ADHD drum and bugle corps decade.

 

decades. it's been this way for along time

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2 hours ago, MikeD said:

Finis is my second least favorite Crown show of this century.

if you tell me you liked 2002 more than this, I can honestly never speak to you nicely again

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36 minutes ago, jthomas666 said:

Well, you sort of did--most of your examples were notably shorter than FOEG...but that's perhaps being too picky.

So if we use the examples from 2018 that come within 15 seconds of FOEG, that still leaves Crown, Cadets, & Mandarins. Since Mandarins had a heavily altered ballad, I understand if one would want to cut this as well, but I think the almost four minute ebb & flow focused on one theme rings true. Either way, let's say there were at least 2 corps that presented a ballad as long (Crown) or nearly as long (Cadets) that were easily accepted by fans & judges this year....I still maintain that that demonstrates a piece like FOEG would still fit in just fine nowadays. And that's to say nothing of my other examples of Bloo 2014, Crown 2014, BD 2016, & Academy 2016 that I mentioned as well that all either surpassed, matched, or came within five seconds of FOEG's play time. Again, the comment was "Fire of Eternal Glory would not be given the time today to develop as it did long, long ago." That's demonstrably not true. At the bare minimum, 2 corps did just that this year alone.

My secondary point is this: while music books are much more complex than the 90s, most corps have largely moved on from the chop n bop experimentation of the early parts of this decade, although it's still fresh in everyone's minds. Phantom's music arrangers still seem to think it's both current and what the judges are looking for.

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13 hours ago, Brian Tuma said:

I would think someone with their own health issues would have some empathy for others. Ever hear of analphylactic shock? I do have to give you credit for the gymnastics you performed just to mock a legitimate medical condition. 

I don't think this response was cool. He was just joking and wasn't mocking anyone or any issue. 

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9 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

if you tell me you liked 2002 more than this, I can honestly never speak to you nicely again

That is why I said second.     😎   

I was at Westchester for the show attached to the HS Leadership camp my daughter was attending, and I still recall one kid yelling "He's moulting" as Icarus "flew" to the corner near the sun, wearing the cloak made of feathers.

 

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10 hours ago, queenanne_1536 said:

For me, I see a huge design drop from 2013 to 2014. Yes, '13, '14, '15 and '16 were leaps and bounds better than 2019. I don't see Regiment as a 7th place corps, I see them as a corps that will be fighting to make top 12.

No one will ever be able to try and convince me Regiment wasn't massively more talented than Mandarins last year. That's what a great design vs a subpar design can do. It's the same reason why Regiment lost to Vanguard, Bluecoats, Boston and Blue Stars in 2009. A more talented corps finished lower than 4 less talented corps due to design alone. 

Again, talent means almost NOTHING.  If you are capable of teaching, the sheer amount of rehearsal makes this a #### near moot point.  That's if you can teach.  Right now I have some SERIOUS questions for Regiment Brass staff.  Simple questions like can they even play a #### brass instrument.  The lack of dynamic contrast is telling.  They simply are not working on the capability to play with more dynamic contrast.  Couple that with some REALLY sub par music arrangements...and here we are.  I have no idea how one would even write a good visual show with that crap that they played last year.  Seriously, if THAT is what you get from New World.....ouch.  Someone needs to make some big boy decisions because if they paid for that mess they paid too much IMHO.

Edited by Mello Dude

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11 hours ago, Jake W. said:

I still maintain that that demonstrates a piece like FOEG would still fit in just fine nowadays.

My secondary point is this: while music books are much more complex than the 90s, most corps have largely moved on from the chop n bop experimentation of the early parts of this decade, although it's still fresh in everyone's minds. Phantom's music arrangers still seem to think it's both current and what the judges are looking for.

Which is kinda the point I was making! THEY would (IMO) take FOEG to the chop shop and it would be a major FAIL!

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4 hours ago, Mello Dude said:

Again, talent means almost NOTHING.  If you are capable of teaching, the sheer amount of rehearsal makes this a #### near moot point.  That's if you can teach.  Right now I have some SERIOUS questions for Regiment Brass staff.  Simple questions like can they even play a #### brass instrument.  The lack of dynamic contrast is telling.  They simply are not working on the capability to play with more dynamic contrast.  Couple that with some REALLY sub par music arrangements...and here we are.  I have no idea how one would even write a good visual show with that crap that they played last year.  Seriously, if THAT is what you get from New World.....ouch.  Someone needs to make some big boy decisions because if they paid for that mess they paid too much IMHO.

Talent does not mean almost nothing. If Regiment did Babylon exactly the way SCV did it, they would have certainly not won finals. I doubt very much they would have even made top 6 or 7 because of the lack of talent. The show simply would have fallen exceptionally short of what SCV did based on talent alone. Any way you slice in, Regiment is not a corps that receives top talent anymore. Last year, they no doubt had the talent of an 8th-10th place corps. Design dropped them to 11th. I felt they should have placed lower. But, I do agree with you that design is a much bigger problem than talent for Regiment (right now).

I agree that it all starts with design, but design leads to more talent. In 2016, a less talented Cavaliers corps beat a more talented Cadets corps. It all started with design. The Cavaliers had a very well designed show, whereas the Cadets had a poorly designed show. As that well designed show is well received by the judges and fans and that is reflected in the scores, the morale of the members is boosted, so is the faith in themselves and their program. For the Cadets, the opposite occurs. When you're accustomed to challenging for titles and suddenly you're struggling with design and competitive results, morale decreases. For both, that snowballs throughout the season and results in a corps who finished 9th in 2015 beating a corps that was fighting for the title in 2015. The exact same can be said for the 2017 BAC vs 2017 Cadets. One would be hard pressed to argue the 2018 and 2017 Cavaliers corps were not more talented than the 2016 corps. Design brings success, success brings talent, talent and design bring championships (SCV 2018). I still believe the Cavaliers are headed upwards, and 2018 was one of those - take a step backwards to take two steps forward - kind of years.

That's why I said Regiment has to start with design. Design can overcome some talent shortcomings to produce better than expected results. When that happens, talent starts returning. For Regiment to return to the top tier, they need to drastically improve on both design and talent.

 

 

Edited by queenanne_1536

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6 minutes ago, queenanne_1536 said:

Talent does not mean almost nothing. If Regiment did Babylon exactly the way SCV did it, they would have certainly not won finals. I doubt very much they would have even made top 6  or 7 because of the lack of talent. The show simply would have fallen exceptionally short of what SCV did based on talent alone. Any way you slice in, Regiment is not a corps that receives top talent anymore. Last year, they no doubt had the talent of an 8th-10th place corps. Design dropped them to 11th. I felt they should have placed lower. But, I do agree with you that design is a much bigger problem than talent for Regiment, even though talent is absolutely a problem.

I agree that it all starts with design, but design leads to more talent. In 2016, a less talented Cavaliers corps beat a more talented Cadets corps. It all started with design. The Cavaliers had a very well designed show, whereas the Cadets had a poorly designed show. As that well designed show is well received by the judges and fans and that is reflected in the scores, the morale of the members is boosted, so is the faith in themselves and their program. That snowballs throughout the season and results in a corps who finished 9th in 2015 beating a corps that was fighting for the title in 2015. The exact same can be said for the 2017 BAC vs 2017 Cadets. One would be hard pressed to argue the 2018 and 2017 Cavaliers corps were not more talented than the 2016 corps. Design brings success, success brings talent, talent and design bring championships (SCV 2018). I still believe the Cavaliers are headed upwards, and 2018 was one of those - take a step backwards to take two steps forward - kind of years.

That's why I said Regiment has to start with design. Design can overcome some talent shortcomings to produce better than expected results. When that happens, talent starts returning.

 

 

I respectfully disagree. (And happen to agree with Mello dude.) If you’re only talking about them playing and marching SCV’s show, and nothing more, then I think it wouldn’t have made as large of an impact. But if the staff came along too? BIG difference IMO. (Remember who was there when they last won?)  It’s all about design and teaching. Everything else flows from that.

From my own time with the corps, ‘92 was arguably the most stacked, talent wise. (I’ve heard multiple corps mates state the same.) But the design was stale and outdated— and our scores ultimately reflected that. Even though we jumped back up to 3rd the following years (sadly, I had to miss out on ‘93), it was more to do with the creative infusion of Tony Hall and Jeff Prosperie (as caption head) than anything else, IMO.

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