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We meaning DCP participants? Can't be accurate...so many here claim they never go to DCI shows anymore.

Good grief....such melodrama. I don't think the Blue Devils (for example) would fade into obscurity if they fail to win a 10-point caption for entertainment effect. Perhaps they would concede a tenth of a point to a corps that could surpass them in that caption. Let's not make mountains out of molehills.

Ask anyone: I've long been regarded as being ignorant when it comes to anything regarding the history and evolution of DCI-era drum corps. PS: I'm not taking umbrage at your opinion, but I think it's inappropriate to state that anyone who holds a certain mentality is "ignorant."

You have no right to even think about calling out SCV for finishing 7th last year. The year before, they were 5th. They've won 6 championships. When and where did you march? Obviously not at SCV, because we have a tendency of putting out individuals who have a little thing called CLASS. It seems like you're missing it. And if I seem ###### about this, it's because I am. I try and stay out of conversations like this, but seriously? Calling out my corps and my home because of PLACEMENT? It's not about the placements! It's about the experiences. Yeah, I'd rather have my summer of 2009 than the championship in 2009, I feel like I got more out of 09, made better friends, and made more memories. It's about the memories, not the placement at the end of the year.

Ok, let's take the 1979 and 1980 Blue Devils, and the 2009 and 2010 Blue Devils. Corps winning back-to-back titles in eras 30 years apart. Both considered dominant corps outstanding in every area (I also chose them because I'm an alumni of the corps, so can't really be accused of corps-bias). Let's exchange visual programs. The 2009/2010 Blue Devils members could learn and perform the 1979/1980 shows in no more than a day or two at most, and could probably learn the drill in an afternoon. Give them a week, and it would be spotless. Now, use a time machine and send 1979/1980 members the 2009/2010 shows. Do you honestly believe that they'd be able to do it? Not. A. Chance.

2010 is cleaner and more complex then anything you could have dreamed of marching in 1980. I see band that can only rehearse 8 hour a week march cleaner, more complicated drill then MANY 1980's corps. Guess at 20 years the rose tint is getting pretty dark, eh?

IMO I don't even think it's close that corps march way better today than 1980. Not only are the physical demands much higher, (strides getting upwards of 3 to 5 and tempos over 220 is not that uncommon anymore) but there is definitely a more unified look to the corps proper now. Corps stand better and MOVE better (there is a difference between marching and moving). Looking at videos from the early 80's there are a wide range of ways the members look when moving. The posture while standing still is just awful. Members now are taught lots of dance to help with moving in a fluid manner. There are still some difference from person to person nowadays, but it's a lot smaller of a range. I'm really not trying to bash older corps. I love older shows. The drum corps activity has just evolved to a more scientific way of thinking especially in the visual performance caption. It's taken 30 years of evolution for the instructors themselves to research and develop the visual programs that exist today. I'm not saying each era is better or worse. They are what they are and I believe it should be left at that.

That's right. God created The Cadets. Just ask Hop. (look down here) l l l l V

uphill, both ways, in the snow, barefoot. Told you it'd end here...

Oh my... what have I missed? LOL Look, Mikey you should just let it go. This is not good for you or anyone else. I care about your health, and this cannot be good for you. My disclaimer is that I had a major part in my dismissal and I really didnt leave Roman much of a choice. I was insubordinate to him in public out of frustration, and watched everything, including my personal values get away from me. I have known Roman as a friend for many years, and I sincerely hope at some point, we can look back at last summer and either laugh or cry together. I posted (and retracted) something a couple of weeks asking posters to not slam last years or previous years' staff. There were excellent teachers in every area that worked very hard with students that maybe werent as talented as many other corps but had the desire to be in drum corps. Also it puts the new staff in a no win situation if they finish with the same or lesser results. I felt that this message wasnt coming from posters BUT from the posts out of the office. I have since received a very respectful personal message from one of the new hires telling me that the staff that had been hired didnt think that way at all, and that they had much respect for the departing staff members. I really appreciated that correspondence as well. The students that know me, know that I am passionate about this to a fault. I am actually relieved to be able to not consume myself in the corps right now. My life is becoming much more manageable with this chance to breathe. I appreciate the opportunities that Roman gave me, and can say that I did the best I could. I sincerely wish the incoming staff and students tremendous success. And Mikey...give it a break, there is no solution to your words my friend, only angst. Donny

Thank you Tony. I'm not going to say what you guys did was easy, I mean, doing 101s as an exercise is enough to kill someone, and doing that for 11 minutes...... But really guys? It was cleaner back then? Probably because they weren't running around the field for 11 minutes at 180+ while doing body movements, and doing drill people could barely dream of back then. But let's take a quick comparison.- Spirit 1980. Everyone loves that show, right? let's look at the intro and opener. Start out, marching in a circle for 32 counts, facing the direction of travel at an 8 to 5. Then long extended park and blow. and finish. Now let's take the 2010 Cavaliers, another show people seem to be enjoying. They start out pretty well running at around 164? or so? Yeah......

And every Cavalier show in the past 20 years is proof that teaching this style DOES work. There are pros and cons to both, and neither is more or less correct than the other. There are also certain types of moves you can do in each style that would be just about impossible in the other style.

Thank you Charlie. As I pointed out in the other thread, but was ignored, corps that do dot marching spend tons of time working with mid-sets. My dot book has somewhere around 125? normal sets, and about 100 or so mid-sets, in between the normal sets. And there were even a few quarter sets thrown in. That means on an 8 count move, we knew exactly where to be on count 2,4,6 and 8. So yeah, we spent some extra time on it. We were trained to know not only what the final set was supposed to look like, but what the mid-set was supposed to look like.

Different Styles and different level of difficulty. Of course it was cleaner.

(I know that isn't the case) Why? Is there only one way to entertain?

One could have the same gripe about any caption on the sheets. BD got 4th in percussion, and they won??? What's that all about?

I'm not very good at math, but how is "once in 1980" and "once in 2011" considered "every day" in your somewhat shakily attempted metaphor?

Where is MikeD when ya need him? I think that a spirited Rabbit Season vs. Duck Season debate between he and Howdy could get us through the weekend just fine.

On average, I'd say everyone's show deserved an average entertainment score. To answer the question for real, there were parts in every show in the top 12 that I found entertaining, and other parts that I found boring, but any show that at some point gets me to care what the performers are doing, they've achieved entertainment regardless of the specific emotion (anger, joy, sadness) is meant to be portrayed.

How in the world did this post get -2? Who could disagree with Stu here?

ah but who sets the judging criteria? the corps

it ties into that speech Cesario gave at that clinic you and I were both at a few years ago. judges are fans too. We want to laugh. We want to cry. We want to hoot and holler. but we arent allowed to, because everyone is too busy trying to be the coolest cat in the room. because show design is geared overwhelmingly to one third of the triad of effect

ok quick...who won DCI in 1998? now how won the Disney award in 1998. right

apples to oranges. good try tho

I say 0. Want to bet?

Perhaps the tint is pretty dark for some out there... I personally could never have marched the way they move now... Certainly not and played! I mean have you seen that VID on the nameless site where Phantom Jazz Runs playing Ode to Joy? Oh My God!

I sense that you are a good person with good intentions in your posted statements, however, I must tell you that you are not coming off well in this discussion. You've provided strongly committed opinions about a variety of things (some of which you can't possibly have knowledge of), moved the discussion off topic and likely (though perhaps unitentionally) offended people in the process. Examples: 1. You've implied in numerous statements that if one does not have "top 12 experience" that their contributions and quality of instruction are somehow "less than" or subordinate to someone with top 12 experience. One does not need a doctoral degree to know that that is obviously flawed, closed thinking that sheds a rather unflattering light on your own credibility. I find it hard to believe that you don't know of anyone with a credible music education background (not that they would need even that) that isn't teaching sound, fundamental performance technique, some of which is probably identical to what is being taught in a top 12 program. 2. While dismissing the quality of all personnel except those with a top 12 background, you then began to critique and question the qualifications of someone with a top 12 background (fsubone). 3. You cited the corps from Rosemont as an example of what should be done with Pioneer, and when advised of what exactly was taught in that organization by the specific individuals well known for their teaching accomplishments with that organization and the corps from the San Francisco suburb of Santa Clara, you choose to criticize that corps by bringing to light an example of an extremely difficult part of one of the most complicated shows ever put on the field... using a clip that pre-dated finals. Even with all of that, most would agree that that clip shows a high level of visual achievement. 4. By questioning fsubone's specific marching years with his corps, you've now implied that apparently only certain top 12 corps are to be given credibility. 5. Whereas I sincerely want to compliment the work that you do through your ministry, with all due respect, I don't think your website is as great as you think it is. 6. Your statements in reference to yourself seem quite conceited, prideful, and perhaps borderline arrogant, as you have more than once used them to criticize others. Really. I could go on.... Please take a step back and objectively consider how you're being received here, and why. You have a message (or portions thereof) that some may or may not agree with, but imo, much of it is lost in your delivery style. What's up with that? As it stands right now, it appears that Jeff R. is correct. I bid you peace. BACK ON TOPIC Go Pioneer!

I was watching some video of an orchestra, and , by gosh, if they weren't beating the snot out of a set of marimbas with hard acrylic mallets...it was during a loud passage...huh...who duh thunk it...

Don't blame the pollster, blame the system. Don't take no shizzle from the man! HH

For every "dot marching doesn't work" video you post, I can post a thousand that proves form marching is worse. I've marched with and taught both styles (with competitive success at both ends of the spectrum), and I can tell you that the best-working method was 90% dot, 10% form. For what it's worth, that particular method helped me get a DCA ring. Marching methods and terminology from "back in the day" simply do not work if you want to produce a modern, competitive visual program. While I think it's important that we understand and honor the past, if you were to try that 70s or 80s style of marching/teaching today, at best you'd get your doors blown in on the score sheet, and at worst you'd indeed be accused of incompetence.

Even though it did not win, 1987 Vanguard is certainly in the running for most effective and famous drum corps show ever. 7

Bleh, welcome to 1998. Your guy had to work really hard to screw up that particular WordPress theme.

The only consequence of giving more weight to the effect caption will be a larger spread for the Bucs. Unless, of course, they are changing what constitutes effect.

I am a proud Pioneer alumnus that marched for the experience. It was (and continues to be) my second home.

Good point. Honestly....IMO.... compared to the "legit" music world (classical, orchestral, etc.... I don't include Miley Cyrus on this list....LOL)... ALL drum corps is a "big, dumb thing." I absolutely would prefer not to see a show with 10 corps doing nothing but Sousa marches, or some such thing.... but I also don't think drum corps fans/performers/staff members (myself included) can afford to be musical snobs, or place drum corps on a level that it is not at, or perhaps never was meant to be at. It's people marching around on a football field, doing their best to perform their shows at the highest level they can... not rocket science or high art.

Re: Respectfully I disagree. And I am the one who is right. Remember my example about not teaching kids to stay in the forms properly. Go watch Pio on youtube in 08, 09, or 2010 and you will easily see the result of not teaching kids how to march properly. While your spot is very important, were I marching If I were in the middle of a form I would stay in that form even if it ment not being in my proper spot. No judges have drill sheets. A judge might not know if you are in your correct spot, but he will know if you are out of the form every time. A mnm instructor has to train his students what to do in real show situations. This is properly training each student what to do if problems happen in the show [ forms ] , there are things that you must do, and things that you must not do. If a student does not know what to do - how to react when mistakes happen, mistakes will multiply.

Without Donny Allen I wonder if Pioneer will have much more than 30 horns this summer? I think more members might leave because of Donny leaving Pio than anything else. Donny's show in 2010 was excellent, but with Pio's buses breaking down on the road, again, Pio was unable to have much time to practice the week before / of finals which resulted in the corps performing lower than many of use expected.

Please do MALAGUENA!! It is my favorite show of all time You just gotta keep those euph solos!

Maybe you will feel better if you just let things go. What's the expression? "Let go and let God".

i'm inclined to agree. it seems at times even in WGI no melody is produced by something not plugged in for substantial amounts of time

i would factor that in yes, but not the only cost. equipment yes, and more importantly...prestige. it's sad when BOA is considered the driving force

Here is a truism for me personally: I came from a high school that had a very poor marching band; and even though I was aware of the great BOA type bands (MBA back then), I knew that I could never be a part of one of those units due to participation being based on specific school enrollment. Therefore when I saw my first DCI show I fell in love with the "quality" of the groups in DCI, "not" the fact that they happened to be drum and bugle corps. I was like a a little league baseball kid who is only accustomed to playing stick-ball becoming aware of the MLB for the first time! Therefore, if what I had seen out on that field in competition that summer evening were high caliber independent non-school affiliated marching bands from all over the country, I would not have cared if their were woodwinds; in fact the thought would have never occurred to me that "those dang blasted instruments are a perversion to the activity". Nope! I still would have driven those many miles to a city that I never knew existed to audition fo a high quality group; I still would have been elated when I was accepted as a member; and still would be full of wonderful memories of being able to perform all over the nation with something of that high quality level. Now go ahead and make my day!!! Give me all of those nanan-booboo red negatives!!!

and I think this is what Cesario was brought on board to help figure out. I don't however, expect a quick fix. And I'm not saying that as a bad thing...it's a complex issue and will take time to sort out. well, amplification is mentioned on at least one sheet. like blend and balance, clarity, and all of the other buzzwords, if it's on the sheets, it's thought to be a need to be competitive. i think at this stage G bugles are a pipe dream and you'll never see them again on the DCI competitive field. I'm a drummer, so I don't get too involved in that. But, I think we'll see far more electronic usage than less, and that's what I think will possibly create a lot of damage

This is where we agree almost entirely. However, eliminating rules altogether or what you're proposing isn't the way to do it. A simple reformation of the judging system would suffice.

When has anyone complained about unamped singing?

Yes, but not very much in that I'm philosophically opposed to amplification anyway.

I actually meant to type vibraphone, haha.

All of it? Pretty much any amped voice I've heard in drum corps has stuck out like a sore thumb, and not in the same way that, say, trumpet soloist sticks out. This includes Crown '07, Cadets '05, Blue Devils '06...just...no.

I don't have a problem with unamplified singing. It's by no means splitting hairs.

It would also be a good gauge on how much support there actually is by DCP posters concerning organizations like SDCA and DCNA.