What is missing from Drum Corps today

[luvs me sum mello!]

This is the old, tired argument of "...if you've not lived in poverty you can't relate". Hogwash. If I have to sit in on a design meeting to be able to understand the show's point, it defacto confirms the show is ineffective in reaching the larger audience. Reminds me of the libretto (was that Star?) - if you have to describe the show in print then your design is not written to attract the average (young or old) fan. Fail.

I would rather like to know which, or how many, JUDGES have sat in on a design meeting. I read the theories here that judges are taught by staff what to judge and how. I shouldn't have to be in the room to remind the staff who the audience is, but the judges seem to get the right to do so.

It's not a legitimate question, IMHO.

Yes it is, you're just not answering it.

The point being made is that perhaps, just perhaps, many corps staff members actually do care about audience reaction. Are they going to reach every single person in the stands? No. But every corps reaches someone. Just because you or me or anyone else doesn't like a show does not mean that the design team didn't think about the crowd.

So thank you for illustrating my point perfectly. It's not about what's ACTUALLY happening, but how a small, vocal minority perceive it.

[JimF-LowBari]

And also, there are some Bb lines that have put me in my seat... but there is where my argument is often lost... the most experience with Gs I have is through my sound system. I have heard lines live... but they were nothing like the lines of the past, so I can't really make a comparison. But there is still much potential with Bb lines. How long did it take to finally get a good sounding line on G horns... there is plenty of room for improvement on these Bb horns still.

As for Bb volume I still think a lot has to do with how the members today are instructed to play. Today it's blend, blend, blend and you can't blend if you or your section is louder than others. Back then during the louder sections the instruction was to play loud as you could while staying in tune. If you were louder than the "blend" that was the other horn players problem.

Good sounding G lines???? How about when we started getting away from the modified Army signaling devices. And I consider my beloved piston/rotor one of these. You had to really listen as you played because they were easy to overblow.

Edit (not quite responding to the above, just adding another thought)

Big problem I have with G discussions is the horns went thru many different configurations over the decades. Hell look at my sig, I played five of them and own another one. If we're talking about current Bb vs G horns that one thing. But no one can really compare todays Bb to G lines of the past as the horns were just made too differenty.

Edit #2: (might as well list them)....

Have played 2 horizontal valves, piston/slide, piston/rotor, 2 (upright) valves and currently on 3v

Own a couple of single valve Baris made about 20 years apart.

Edited January 9, 2010 by JimF-3rdBari

[garfield]

So thank you for illustrating my point perfectly. It's not about what's ACTUALLY happening, but how a small, vocal minority perceive it.

It's not a question of what's actually happening; it's a question of how many fans disapprove of what's happening.

Your point fails in your presumption that only a minority see what's happening. My contention is that it's a vocal majority that makes this an issue. The source from my contention comes from far greater interaction with fans than just DCP (although DCP may be the most "qualifed" musically to discuss the issue). By small degrees of separation we each can touch several fans who don't peruse DCP yet feel "lost" in the activity. Smaller participation in the activity means fewer new fans and a growing "old" fan base. I contend a majority of the fan base sees design as something to be judged, not something to be enjoyed.

[MikeD]

This is the old, tired argument of "...if you've not lived in poverty you can't relate". Hogwash. If I have to sit in on a design meeting to be able to understand the show's point, it defacto confirms the show is ineffective in reaching the larger audience. Reminds me of the libretto (was that Star?) - if you have to describe the show in print then your design is not written to attract the average (young or old) fan. Fail.

There have been two printed librettos that I know of...Regiment's first Spartacus show and....your namesake....Garfield passed on out in 1971, a year before DCI. It was our Revolutionary War show.

Both shows were very well appreciated by fans in general.

[HockeyDad]

There have been two printed librettos that I know of...Regiment's first Spartacus show and....your namesake....Garfield passed on out in 1971, a year before DCI. It was our Revolutionary War show.

Both shows were very well appreciated by fans in general.

1971? Did they have drum corps that long ago? Did you have to take trains to get to shows?

[MikeD]

1971? Did they have drum corps that long ago? Did you have to take trains to get to shows?

Actually we went by Conestoga Wagon Train, and the libretto was scratched out on papyrus.

..and you thought the Troopers just COPIED old-time military unis...

[Bruckner8]

2009 DCI Championships 1/4 finals...... Cadets percussion score......19.30...3rd place

2009 DCI Championships 1/2 finals.......Cadets percussion score.......19.50...3rd place

2009 DCI Championships Finals............Cadets percussion score.......18.50.....7th place

Seems to me that, in the Cadets case, the Finals percussion judge was "clueless", or wanted to stick it to the Cadets! I don't know the story behind this score, but it made a big difference in the Cadets' placing at Finals.

Ron Gunn

An equally valid conclusion is: The first two judges were clueless, and went with Cadet's Competitive Inertia, giving them the inflated scores "expected" of them.

[kevingamin]

An equally valid conclusion is: The first two judges were clueless, and went with Cadet's Competitive Inertia, giving them the inflated scores "expected" of them.

Yet another equally valid conclusion - Cadets drumline had a bad night on Finals and the score reflected that. It's possible that all three scores from all three nights are correct.

[Bruckner8]

Let's stir the pot a bit. Here is an idea... lets completely do away with judges all together and leave it to the fans. The fans pick the winners.

Being totally serious here. No guidelines, no criteria to meet, just fan appeal and applause.

In fact, lets take it a step further, lets get rid of the competitive aspect out of drum corps all together. No more competition at all.

Excellence--the very definition of drum corps--would go down.

The competitive aspect is here to stay. It drives too many egos (staff and membership) to be forgotten.

[perc2100]

Yes it is, you're just not answering it.

The point being made is that perhaps, just perhaps, many corps staff members actually do care about audience reaction. Are they going to reach every single person in the stands? No. But every corps reaches someone. Just because you or me or anyone else doesn't like a show does not mean that the design team didn't think about the crowd.

So thank you for illustrating my point perfectly. It's not about what's ACTUALLY happening, but how a small, vocal minority perceive it.

I've actually talked with people who have designed for World Class corps (some Championship winners), and the shows were indeed designed with the intent to max out the sheets AND get the audience applause. In fact, one disappointment I've heard stated is a show that ended with a "down" type ending, and the corps never quite maxed out their last big impact point before the down ending. One staffer always brings up the fact that he was bummed they never were able to push the horns to play the last big power chord louder to make the audience applaud more before going into down ending.

Also, the same person likes to talk about "the Champion roar" of the crowd. Meaning, the distinct sound of approval the crowd gives to the corps they think should win it all. This person told me that they often tried to design moments to achieve that Champion roar from the crowd, and they were disappointed with the years his corps was not able to achieve it.

Yes, designers obviously like to win, and/or achieve their competitive goals for the season. But they also want to achieve loud crowds going nuts with praise/approval of their product. The fact that people honestly believe that designers don't care at all about fans, and care only about scores, is generally ludicrous (though obviously there have been years when a corps' design team goes nuts with the intention of pushing the activity, criticism be ######).