The REAL San Antonio Rough Riders Thread

[DrumManTx]

This drive home SUCKS.  

[jwillis35]

1 hour ago, BRASSO said:

 Meanwhile, sad to learn of this not that far away from the A/C domed stadium in San Antonio as this show took place yesterday.

 http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/8-found-dead-in-trailer-11308288.php

Wow, this is horrible and so tragic. First and foremost it's a human trafficking crime that Homeland Security is now involved with. But it also shows just how hot it was in San Antonio, TX yesterday.  Someone did say on this thread that had the show not been in the Alamodome (with AC) that it would have been cancelled. 

[PopcornEater1963]

15 hours ago, Dpsouthern81 said:

Protein shake

Brotein shake.... :-)

[Terri Schehr]

13 minutes ago, DrumManTx said:

This drive home SUCKS.  

Be safe! 

[Jake W.]

A fun reminder to everyone (more just something that I have to remind myself of, I guess), that San Antonio is good for figuring out scoring neighborhoods, and that's about it. Looking at the last few years, on average, about half of the corps finish the season in a different position than they did at SA a few weeks prior (most of the positions are within one or two places of their SA position, though). 

Last season, 11/21 (Pioneer didn't attend SA) finished in Indy at a different position (within world class, not counting the interspersed Open groups) than they did at SA. The most notable changes: a) at SA, Scouts were in 11th, over 2 points ahead of Boston in 13th, and b) Spirit was 2 points ahead of Crest, but would finish a little over 2 points behind them at Semis a few weeks later.

2015: Obviously, Cadets were the biggest change from SA to Indy, outright winning the SA Regional, a full 2 points over Bloo in 4th, only to drop to 4th by the time Finals rolled around. Cavies dropped from 7 to 9, but of course most of that was their corps-wide sickness. OC jumped both Mandarins & Spirit between SA & Indy. All in all, 12/22 finished in a different position at Indy than SA.

2014: 9/22 finished in different positions from SA to Indy. Most notably, Cadets were just under half a point behind BD finishing 2nd, but about 3 points behind BD at Indy. Also, Spirit went from 14th to 16th, passed by Colts & The Academy. Colts lept both Spirit & Troopers to finish 13th, Academy lept both OC & Spirit to finish 15th from 17th.

So, all that is to say ---- nothing is set in stone after San Antonio. Just gives us a clearer idea of which groups are scoring close together. It ain't over till it's over!

Edited July 23, 2017 by Jake W.

[Cappybara]

1 hour ago, mjoakes said:

Hey, if everyone thinks they know the best way to structure a health care industry, why not evaluate drum corps guards?

Who knew judging guard was so complicated? 

[Cappybara]

1 hour ago, bluesman said:

I don't think there are judges who intentionally score a corps lower or higher to hurt them in the standings, but like most people the judges may have biases that they are not even aware of.  So if there is a consistent pattern with the judge or their scores are way off when compared to other judges you have wonder why.

All judges have implicit biases. All human beings have implicit biases. 

As long as the explicit biases aren't being reflected in the scores, I think everything is fine. 

[MikeRapp]

1 hour ago, henry7184 said:

I still am laughing over these guard scores. Regiment 4th in content and 2nd in achievement. That is just completely laughable. Their book isn't even top 8, and their achievement should have been around 6th last night. 

There are several areas that need some serious attention before Indy. Can't have a medal decided by one judge who is off the reservation.

[pudding]

6 hours ago, jwillis35 said:

Not sure I can buy these comments. You are minimizing the contributions of Bluecoats, Crown, and SCV. 

Blue Devils have certainly developed a style of performance that integrates guard into the whole of the show. They treat visual much differently than others, and I think that's cool.  There is no doubt they have had an influence on others in the activity, but I believe what Crown, SCV, and Bloo are doing is quite different and equally special.  

BD's closest competitor (so far) this year is SCV. Santa Clara's show is way more than what you described above. They are marching a lot of drill that reminds me of Cavaliers early 2000s. Their brass book is edgy and powerful with lots of technical passages, both by the small ensemble and some by the full ensemble. The guard is very unique, and percussion top notch. They use their props more like Bluecoats have in recent years, and not just as stages or backdrops. There is very little in this show that speaks "we are imitating BD." 

Carolina Crown is perhaps marching the most traditional drill of the top 4. They still do their body movement, but that is not something they took from BD. They have been doing that for a while. Crown actually reminds me more of Cadets 2015. Really hard traditional drill, incredible brass, really good percussion, and solid GE that in the end may not be enough due to a good but not great guard book.  We shall see. Nonetheless, Crown is a dangerous corps with incredible performance capabilities and cleanliness.  There is nothing about Crown that speaks imitating BD. 

The Bluecoats have developed a style that is uniquely them, just as BD has.  The styles and influences present in Bluecoats seem to morph together from many sources. They have touches of old Madison Scout style brass presentation, Blast! style staging and movement, a more involving use of props, they layer rhythms and grooves in the music to the visual drill much the way Cavaliers did from 2000 - 2006 (sequencing as I call it), and their use of dance and electronics (as you mentioned) has been at the forefront of the activity.  Bloo is not imitating BD.  As great as BD is -- and I love them this year -- I think you will find that more corps are actually looking at Bluecoats and some of their ideas and concepts when it comes to designing shows. 

I'll admit that when I wrote that post, it was very late and I was not necessarily thinking with 100% of my brain, so I needlessly diluted my off-the-cuff descriptions of those corps. I do believe that your evaluations are more complete and more accurate in general, but I think that you're leaving some things out.

SCV's show this year reminds me very much of a cross between 2005-ish Cavaliers and 2009-ish BD (which makes sense, given both the staff and the general design direction of the activity). My primary complaint with the show holistically is that it doesn't seem to go anywhere in terms of build or excitement. I feel that this is because they have made a musical decision to only ever have very short passages in the brass (of varying technical difficulty, let's leave that discussion for elsewhere) interspersed between many, many percussion breaks. In my opinion, this breaks up the natural flow and build of the show into instead a series of vignettes, which are individually very nice but from a gestalt perspective do not combine into a powerful whole. As far as relation to BD, I think that it's more subtle than with Crown, but there's definitely elements of influence from 2000-2009 era BD in terms of feel and pacing.

Crown's musical execution this year is, as always, top-notch. Their brass sound continually amazes me with its sonority, even inside the very awkward harmonies in pieces like the Akiho. Additionally, they have several interesting visual ideas; in particular, I enjoy the broken yard lines as an effect. However, throwing a bunch of good ideas into a blender and calling the smoothie cohesive is not good overall design. As has been discussed in the Crown thread, it's very difficult to rationalize the awkwardly composed back half with the relatively cohesive front half. For me personally, as soon as the vocalist in For Good begins singing, I can't watch anymore because my "suspension of disbelief" (or whatever the analogue is for this activity... immersion?) is broken; it's too jarring of a shift from the beautiful brass and percussion sounds to the unprocessed Broadway/Disney-style singing. The performer herself is doing a great job of what's being asked of her, my problem is with what she's being asked to do. The entire second half of the show screams to me of the kind of overly-abstract, highbrow kind of post-structuralist art that BD was doing in 2010-2013, yet for some reason (because it's Crown instead), they're being given the benefit of the doubt by everyone instead of being justly criticized for their hodgepodge design. Their own show description is more or less a mirror, so that in lieu of any provided explanation the audience and the judges can just tack on whatever explanation they want.

Bluecoats have definitely been influenced by BD in terms of visual design philosophy. While they've been steadily developing a unique style since 2014 (actually, going back to 2007 or so, but those developments are less relevant to this discussion), starting last year they really started to embrace the idea of full-body movement as visual content. This is definitely a BD-esque design decision. Sure, they've also been influenced by other sources (Scouts brass and Cavaliers percussion as you mentioned), but there is a distinct element of BD in their visual design. Since visual has always been their Achilles heel, I think that it's very notable that they are attempting to integrate BD-style visual philosophy in an attempt to boost both their effect and their numbers.

[MikeRapp]

6 hours ago, jwillis35 said:

To me, this is an insult to the Blue Devils and the judging community. People say this all the time, that BD designs to the sheets. I don't think so. Of course, what people often mean when they say this is that the Blue Devils found some loophole in the judging sheets and decided to exploit it for scores. That somehow they are willing to exploit a loophole in the sheets for easy numbers.  When you have the most championships there will be more criticism. I get that.   

Then there are those saying BD is too formulaic and that they are not pushing the activity. Nothing wrong with formulas. Crown has one. The Cavaliers used a formula to great success in the 90s and early 2000s. The Cadets used one for decades -- to great success.  A formula is a great thing.  The Madison Scouts used to thrill fans and light-up stadiums around the country because of a formula.  The Bluecoats finally won a DCI title because of a cool formula.  

Why is it that many seem to feel the leaders in the activity should always be pushing the envelope? There is nothing in the sheets that say you have to do that. Push too hard, change too much, and experiment too often and one can lose their identity, quality, and find themselves in uncharted territory for which they have little experience. This can be fun, certainly challenging, but also risky.  The wheel does not always need to be reinvented. The judging system is setup to reward performance, quality design, and overall effect.  The sheets do not care whether your show is trying the newest or craziest ideas.  The sheets care about the quality of performance, design, and how those two things combine for a total effect. 

In retrospect, I feel as though we are finally seeing other corps establish themselves by doing what BD chose to do a decade ago.

Which is to find a style, a way of designing shows, and building only within those parameters.

And we are seeing those design styles be rewarded, consistently, by the judging community.

We now have to address things that up to now have not been a part of scoring, in terms of difficulty. Some of the things some corps are doing, as a part of their style, in the past may have been scored as less demanding than other ways of getting there from here. DCI must address this, as they did a decade or so ago, or fans will become jaded and cynical about the competition itself.

The use of electronics is headed to a scoring category.

Follow the leader, long felt to be something less difficult than marching formations, will have to be reevaluated. Because the way Bluecoats is doing it is ###### hard to do well.

Again, just as BD convinced DCI that guard, jazz running and dramatic story telling had to be valued, and assymetical marching drills, these are things that also need to be re-valued.

I doubt this re-evaluation will have much impact on the top of the activity. But, it will encourage corps to step out of their styles more, and try new ways to do things. And hopefully, far more importantly, it's critical to expand the activity to allow more opportunity for up and coming corps to find their own niche.