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I'm fighting the urge to be highly insulted by this post, Tom. But let me say that I'm sorry you feel let down by your drum corps brethren. You insult your "brethren" by saying we, collectively, don't have the money to change the trends. Then you imply that the prime motivation for dissenting opinion here should be an attempt to "grab power". Then you insult GH and Gibbs by saying they, in fact, grabbed the power by nefarious means; all except earning it. You relate DCP contributors to coffee shop bellyachers who just complain about...(politics)...but don't do anything about it, while you forget that the nature of the country they sit in is that their collective wisdom and representation trumps the single-minded goal of those in power. Well... You don't have any inclination of the financial where-with-all of the collective DCP or drum corps fan community. You forget that that very collective financial base provides the means for the GH and DG, and all the others of drum corps, to provide their product. In a much deserved ###-for-tat, my conjecture is that my net worth could buy yours several times over. And even if it is true, SO WHAT? Even Bill Cook, whose financial means could buy all of our (yes, ALL) several times over, tried your approach and today admits that that approach only made him "broker" (his word) for the effort. Whose lead should I follow, his or yours? There are few on DCP, and equally few in the wider drum corps community, who have the inclination to "grab power" from those in power. And again, SO WHAT? In a country of 300 million only a select several hundred seek the power of office, but that fact does not diminish the power of the other 299, 999, 500 people in the "community". We "elect" the leaders of drum corps every year by the very act of opening our wallets to pay (or not) for their product. Hopkins and Gibbs didn't grab the power in the pejorative description you provide. They worked hard for it, dedicated themselves to it, and earned it. In fact, when they attempted to actually "grab power" in the connotation you suggest, the collective wisdom of the greater community shot them down, removed them from power, and installed a new power structure that, in their view (and mine), had the greater community of drum corps more sharply focused in their minds and actions. The collective of the G8 may still wield significant power to change the nature of the activity, but I'm convinced that if they decided to break off and follow their passion drum corps would survive, and maybe thrive, without them. To use your words, "And again, DCI still here...still doing what it does." "Grabbing power for ourselves"? Are you serious? Is that your answer to the disagreements on the direction of the activity? That's not ever been my intent in my active involvement, and I contend that acting on such motivations puts one directly in the same position as those whom you lament as the power-grabbers, cajoling, bullying, badgering, befuddling and, in countless other nefarious ways, "sticking our hands out and grabbing" the power. Is that how you view constructive solutions to disagreement in the ranks? If so, I feel sorry for you. Then, after insulting the financial standings of DCP'ers and in your infinite wisdom, you advise a simple, poor grad student that he doesn't "need money to usurp power". That he only need "go out there and grab the rails". Excuse me, but what a crock of crap that is! I agree that GH or DG would happily bend to the wishes of a very large contributor, but how, exactly, do you suppose they would react to Hrothgar, or anyone else, withholding the check and, instead, simply grabbing the power from them? I'm sorry Tom, I expected better from you. My unverified opinion has been that you are one of the "old guard", respected for your involvement, knowledge, and insight into the activity you share with thousands of others just as passionate as yourself. If this post is an indication of your influence on the betterment of the activity then the only thing I'm befuddled about is how I came to that opinion in the first place. Oh, and you don't know beans about my financial situation, my passion, or my involvement in attempting to exert momentum on the activity.

Already, you know the next sentence will start with the word "but". No. Nobody wants to watch me walk through snow uphill both ways. There has never been any 'necessity' to do these things the drum corps way, when we've had a marching band activity running parallel to drum corps the whole time. Even when the AL/VFW organized drum corps field contests shortly after World War I, they organized marching band contests at the exact same time. Ken Norman and Tom Sorensen weren't forced to recreate the pipe band sound via the arranging and performing skills imparted to the 1972 Kilties....they could just as easily arranged for the Racine Elks marching band and used actual bagpipes. The electronic shortcuts that synthesizers provide for sound effects have been available to marching bands for decades. No designer, performer or fan has faced the 'necessity' of doing without those devices in that time. So why, then, do we bother with drum corps at all? Why do people watch this stuff? Why do people watch live music performance at all, when we can record and/or synthesize music more reliably? Why do we watch people kick a soccer ball, when it is so much easier to throw the thing into the goal? Oh, wait. You gave us the answer above....preference. For some strange reason, people find it entertaining to watch a challenging achievement....even when technology provides an easier route to the same achievement. No one? You asked them all? The larger point is that I'm confident that some people have gone to drum corps shows, stayed at drum corps shows, and sought out other drum corps shows at least partly because they actually found interest in the concept of producing music with that limited equipment set. The 11 example effects I listed are just a tiny portion of the overall palette of sounds created by acoustic drum corps. Alright, it is no longer a question. You really don't get it. There's a huge disconnect between this attitude and the attitudes that have drawn fans to drum corps in substantial numbers through the years. If your attitude is as representative of today's designers as you contend, this disconnect could cost DCI the difference between their fan base and the transient, family-dependent audiences that marching band settles for.

Exactly. Just like soccer, unchanging amid a changing world (in which it reigns as the most popular spectator sport). That's not a valid analogy. Perhaps some alumni corps might fit that description, but not even all of them. Unless drum corps kept playing the same shows over and over again, there would always be new show designs each year. I think I've heard the same thing about classical music....the piano....soccer....all sorts of things that are still around.

No....your twisting of my words is absurd. See, this is what I am referring to. I just explained in a previous post that those sound effects were just a few selected examples of a larger overall palette of sounds that drum corps offered over the years, and that fans have been drawn not just by "sound effects", but all the music, created with a limited equipment set....and you still go creating more strawmen than all the cornfields in Iowa. In. Your. Opinion. I don't think you do. Here's why.... I am not some dinosaur, fixated on the way it was when I marched....actually, my favorite periods of drum corps are a decade after I marched, and a decade before I marched (an era I never saw live). But that's neither here nor there. Is there no middle ground for you? No choice other than to embrace every change, or "hate"? Is that why you react to my posts so strongly? Would you be more at peace if you knew how deeply I enjoy today's drum corps, despite favoring how it was a decade ago?

I was just hoping that Drum Corps Planet could start a section on Small Drum Corps Assoication ,or ( Arena Drum Corps ) much like they do for DCA and DCI section. Small drum is the way to go if your group has a small budget in this tight economy, and then go on to grow to a bigger corps, either a DCA or DCI group. Thanks for you time.

Does anybody else still listen to 2010 sound-only recordings? If so ,which are on your mp3 player the most? For me it's Crown, Blue Knights, Bluecoats, SCV,and BD ----------------------------------- added: Blue Stars can't believe i forgot this one, which listen to lots.

From Crossmen alumnus Kyle B.: Thinking of Chuck Naffier's pitch-perfect arrangements, combined with what looks to be a return to the traditional focus on entertainment in the form of natural musical and visual excellence, made me literally shiver at the prospect of that ineffable "Crossmen groove" returning once again. Should be interesting.

I am not sure why you feel a corps needs to go "Outside the box" or "Depart from their traditions" to challenge for or win a DCI Championship title. People have already said...execute a well thought out cohesive show...and you will be a Gold medal winner... A good example would be this past season....two corps (And not just because I happened to like their shows) Blue Knights and Madison Scouts. Both performed what I guess you would call "Traditional shows".....yet BK finished a strong 11th (same as 2009 finish) and Madison beat 5 corps they lost to in 2009 to finish 10th. Both did very well with traditional-type shows..... BD "Risked Absurdity" in 2008....it didn't win with the judges or the crowd.... As far as the poll goes....Crown will probably win a ring before BC. BD's undefeated streak will end in 2011....but I do believe they will challenge for the title (Prob top 3) First corps to catch BD....hard to say....Cavies or Cadets

Shows that self proclaimed dci purists on here go wild over: Madison 95, Phantom 2008, SCV 88/89, Crown 2007... No themes there!

If it sounds like Dilbert, that's because I'm at work. Sorry. I'm referring to trends in music, including marching band but not only marching band. There is no denying that technology factors into music more every day. Popular music in particular "samples" technology all the time. It's getting difficult to distinguish the technology from the content. Electronics in drum corps (or marching band) is part of a music continuum. It's reasonable for those of us who grew up in an accoustic marching world to ask why are electronics needed. What's unreasonable is for us to say to those who grew up with electronic instruments that their sensibilities are locked out of this activity forever. HH

No delusions. You’re right. A wonderful ovation – until the 1985 style felt familiar or even old again. This notion that there is a well of pent-up demand for the vintage drum formula doesn’t hold water. Voting in the Classic Countdown didn’t support it (even in the years when “classic” was a component). Downloads of video and audio also skew mightily to the current styles, which include electronics. That longer-term fans might already have older shows in their libraries is at best an offset. The trend is the same over more than one year. The fact is buyers aren’t buying 1985. Their preference is for modern. If this were different from the behavior of music consumers in other categories we might have something to discuss. It’s not. The fact that Earth Wind and Fire was the greatest band of the 70s isn’t enough to put them on the charts in the 00s. Drum corps is the same. That doesn’t make 1985 bad. It wasn’t. It was great – for 1985. We’re 25 years past then, 15 past 1995 and five past 2005. Time marches on just like drum corps. If it were to disconnect electronics, drum corps would be disconnecting from the moment and the future. There’s no future in that. HH

Then it's safe to say you don't agree with Competitive Inertia? Bruckner? Bruckner?

Working at the San Diego Symphony, I take time away from my desk to listen to the orchestra whenever I can. This morning, while watching a rehearsal for Richard Strauss' Ein Heldenleben (A Hero's Life) I sat upright in my chair, hearing the opening fanfare from Phantom Regiment's 2008 Spartacus pre-show. Can't wait to hear it three more times this weekend!

DCI is what it is and will be what it will be. All anyone of us can do as mere spectators is either buy tickets and souvenirs or not. That is why those of you posting on DCP who desire G horns, No Amps, etc... instead of banging your heads against a wall in a futile attempt to change DCI into your vision, should simply change your own ticket and souvie support over to organizations like SDCA or the newly formed DCNA. If there is enough of a spectator jump over to those organizations DCI will have to revert or die on the vine. Imagine if DCNA finals in 2020 has 50,000 in the stands and DCI has just 2,000; that will be the tell-tail sign. Otherwise, I agree that all of this complaining about DCI is Monday Morning Quarterbacking at the local coffee shop then going back to the same game next Sunday (which, by the way, is what we have done since the inception of coffee shops; it is part of our social meeting of the minds and somewhat healthy to our own well-being).

Thanks! I didn't know bundles were available for download. Just got 1974-1976! Even when the price goes up, I'll get more because my old CDs are worn out to the point that my computer wouldn't recognize them.

Would like more info on what these two specifically did to "cajole, bully, badger, befuddle, and grab" this power. I see them as being the directors of two of the most successful corps in DCI. I think that would bring with it some power in and of itself. If they truly were all that powerful, how were they not able to fight back when they got kicked off the board? You make it sound as though these changes that you bemoan are the direct result of only them. And, out of curiosity, since you've posed the question to the forum... What are you doing usurp some of this power? Or what would you suggest those interested do?

Ok, well, the e-mail came from DCI today, to order tickets for these "special" shows. But there is STILL no definition of what they are selling here! I called DCI a month ago, and asked how these shows would be judged, and I was told that this would be "determined by the corps involved". I asked how DCI could be scheduling and selling tickets to events that were undefined, with no indication of how these shows fit into the competition schedule for the rest of the season. I was told that they "were only SCHEDULING the shows and not SELLING tickets yet". This was a month ago. Well, now here they are SELLING TICKETS to these events, without having defined what it is they are selling! Are these going to be exhibitions? Are the shows going to be judged like other shows, so the scores can be comparable, and represent a true part of the competitive season? IMHO, the answer to this question will dictate whether I have any interest in seeing these "special" shows at all. And again, I think DCI has a responsibility to tell us what it is they are selling, to define the product we are paying for. Mr. Acheson.....a word??

I like the title of this thread.

Then isn't it better to just have variety? "Modern style Corps" mixed with "80's style corps"? Just like any ipod playlist? Here's the game plan: Have the rules about electronics and synths in place. change the judging to make it "actually" optional. Allow both acoustic and electric drum corps to compete fairly against each other... boom. Lovely Variety in drum corps!

I think it's also important to list the first corps with narration to tell a story, because that's an indicator of a major shift in emphasis. The earliest I can remember is Boston 2004. (Obviously narration wasn't feasible before that year.)

I’ll concede that a G-bugle playing, unplugged corps is distinct. Even a Bb, unplugged corps. Unfortunately, that distinction becomes less useful and relevant over time. Suspending drum corps as if in amber might preserve certain unique elements of the art. The clear downside is the obvious disconnect from the world around it. Drum corps would be the marching equivalent of an oldies station on FM. No matter how much you love the music, there’s no denying it’s always looking back and never forward. The model isn’t sustainable indefinitely. Eventually, the playlist changes even so the oldies format can survive. The synth choice isn’t about identity. It’s about relevance. Ignoring the trends around drum corps is ignoring the market around drum corps. Oldies station exist as a niche in a large market. Drum corps isn’t a large market. It is the niche. It is the radio station playing a narrow range of hits. If the range never changes, the audience will – and not in a good way. Time marches on even when drum corps doesn’t. HH

That's BS IMO, if a corps is the best every year, they deserve to win every year, regardless of what impression it gives. The judges would have far less integrity to not let BD win if they deserve to, based on some percieved eyebrow raizing than if they keep rewarding the best, and it shouldn't matter if they're 5pts better than 2nd or .05 better than second. Best is best, period.

Oh I get it. I get that your premise that creating an effect acoustically was somehow a pivotal part of drum corps is absurd. What about all the shows (pre-electronics) where there were no sound effects? Were those designers letting down their kids? Were the fans let down by the (according to your logic) incomplete drumcorps productions with no acoustic effects ? Were their creative juices withered in a show with no opportunity to build a device to make an elephant call? Electronics are a better answer to making many effects. End. Of. Story. Do I feel corps need to use them? No. I am offended when they do? No. Do they make acoustic effects irrelevant? No. Witnessed lots of acoustic effects in shows since electronics passed. Expect I'll keep hearing them. Do I think it's ok to use them as an additional musical color (ie as an instrument not as an SFX generator)? Yes. Subject to the same criteria as the rest of the production. Does it make sense ? Does is draw me further into the moment? Is it seamless? Do I think some corps have handled electronics less than ideally? Absolutely. Just like some corps came to Indy and still lots of dirt in the show. There's a broad spectrum of execution with electronics just like with the of drum corps. Honestly I understand you loved drum corps they way it *used* to be. The first bugle I ever played was a valve and rotor baritone. But that's not the way it is anymore. The way I see it you can choose a priori to hate drum corps as it is today or you can choose to be open-minded. I find it much more enjoyable to be open-minded.

And until all tickets sold are for press-box seating, I think there might be a problem with that approach.

Once upon a time, I recorded the Allentown show from that same platform. Learned a lot about just how different the sound is way up there (and way back there....for those who haven't been there, the "upper deck" is behind the lower deck....no overhang). There are significant differences in balance at different viewing positions, especially involving amps. Pit amplification that sounds "balanced" to the press box judges may be deafening to spectators at closer range.

Interesting. I thought last year WAS a departure for the cavaliers. I have not liked the corps the last couple of years, but I thought they were great this last year because they were different. And this... I just don't see it. To me their shows have been VERY similar. I mean last year their show was called "a second chance" for crying out loud and they reprised the promise of living from the year before.

Last year they had 3 synths. Since they are increasing their hornline from 72 to 80, they have to make cuts someplace. So I expect 3 less synths and 5 less guard members would be where they would need to make the cuts (but there is no mention of that in the article below.) Synths are expensive also, so maybe that's where the money is coming from to buy the new flugel horns. I hear they are more expensive than trumpets. _______ The Crossmen Alumni Association is seeking donations for their annual Holiday Campaign. In addition to the increase in annual expenditures, the staff wants to increase the Brass Line to 80 members including a Flugel Horn Line. See below: This week brings the opening of the Crossmen Annual Holiday Campaign.The annual campaign has been a tradition of the Crossmen for many years and is especially significant this year as the corps celebrates the start of our 37th Season! “The Holidays are always a special time of the year for our corps and all who love it. The Crossmen family has always been a generous and giving family of people who truly know how to celebrate the spirit of the Holidays” said Executive/Corps Director Fred Morrison. We wish to thank all those that continue to make their contribution to the corps in these challenging times. With the added tour costs the corps experienced from high fuel and food costs in 2010 as well as the purchase of additional instruments due to an increase in the number in the hornline (72 to 80) for 2011, the need for additional funds for the corps is an ever growing equation. The 2011 season brings with it the expectation of increasing the size of the hornline to 80 with the addition of flugel horns. "Our goal is to receive $20,000 in donations from Crossmen alumni, family, friends and fans." added Morrison. If you feel in the Holiday Spirit and want to contribute to your corps, we can use your help. No gift is too small" Ride along with us on our 2011 tour with your $250.00 tax deductible donation we will put your name on the side of our tour buses and add a listing in 2011 yearbook. Donate $500 and we put your name on the side of the buses, yearbook listing and dedicate an instrument in your name with an engraved plate on the instrument case or in the instance of a front ensemble instrument sponsorship on the instrument frame. Of course, any size donation is welcome! You can donate via check mailed to: Crossmen Productions Inc PO Box 591940 San Antonio, TX 78259

rumors that suddendly in demand consultant michael lentz has hitched his wagon to "convalescence" are unconfirmed at press time however reports are that he will be paid in cash,stool softner and applebee's coupons are substantiated. "we are looking forward to learning some new modeling poses,ripples and whippy dippy flips" said an excited sebastienne st. jacque "and understanding how the activity works having his name appear on our lackluster staff list just might get us into finals[or at least keep us from disqualification]".

And you want to have a job with the corps next year too......

<so we can hear Brandt Crocker intone it.> Oh, wouldn't it be loverly to hear Brandt read aloud the repertoire for a corps playing the great hits from 'Monty Python's The Meaning Of Life'? Just imagine: Please welcome the Crosstown Rangers, with their 2011 program, THE MEANING OF LIFE!, including EVERY SPERM IS SACRED, THE CRIMSON ASSURANCE COMPANY, TRENCH WARFARE, and closing with ISN'T IS LOVELY TO HAVE A #####!

No worries, your guard had spats in 99 and they looked fine. btw 99 is my favourite hockey jersey ;-)

You know what I just realized. I don't think a SINGLE person would be upset that the Crossmen might not use a synth. The Traditionalist will be ecstatic and the progressive fans will be... well progressive, and accept it as just a different approach. Win Win? Oh right... the judges... just fix that...

oh please Mike. his comments were quite clear and readable to all here on DCP when he said that in 2004. Just because you choose to fall for the PR damage part doesn't mean it's not true. why would he say it in the first place? he was answering a direct question with that statement. he only came back and changed his tune when the #### storm followed

well....look at it this way. you're a designer...you see the sheets. you see the buzzwords on the sheet. you want to give them what they are looking at on the sheet to be competitive right?

because he feels they are used to it from their HS band experience. here's the thing...more bands out there do not use it than do.

Don't shoot the messenger if I'm wrong, my comment came from another person's statement in the Crossmen thread that they won't be using it, although I just can't imagine the design staff wanting to use them. Chuck writing the Brass, Beddis writing the percussion, 80 brass... BRING ON THE CLIPS!!!!

Hate the goo

A change of direction... In my original post quoting the rules change proposal to allow A&E, Hopkins said that the kids in the marching band stands look at drum corps as the "Rock Stars" of marching music. I posed the question (and no one has yet addressed it): If those kids already view drum corps as the "Rock Stars" what is the justification for adding A&E to attract them?

Those sorts of items are not a check list on the sheets. They are guidelines to consider in evaluating a performance. IF the corps used amplification, they had better use it appropriately. That's all it is saying.

DCP is a small part of the DCI universe tho. if DCI wants to know, they really need to contact everyone on their mailing list

I suppose I should be flattered at the thought, but I really just want to puke or shoot myself. If what you say is true the real hilarity is that they don't know I'm just channeling you, Mike. "Hmmmmmmmmm..........What would Mike do?......................Hmmmmmmmmmmm" WWMD, (Yea that's it. Those Wascally Weapons of Mass Destruction.)

Another article from digitalmusicnew.com (I know - not as reputable as WSJ, but it's what I could find). http://digitalmusicnews.com/stories/110210liveconcerts I think that a large part of declining attendance at DCI is just declining attendace at all activities like this. Too much competition with entertainment opportunities at home. As much as I love football, and know that the experience is completely different when at the stadium, it's not worth the money, hassle, time, and discomfort it takes to go to the game versus watching it at home. For those of us that love the drum corps experience, there's absolutely no substitute for seeing it live. Even Bluray and a top-shelf stereo system is no match. For people that just like it, they either wait for the DVD, watch it on youtube, or just lose interest all together because to them it's not worth the hassle and money. And even for me who has a daughter marching her second season this year, money is a BIG issue. While I won't get to see as many corps live as I'd like, I can't justify shelling out the money to travel to Indy, get a hotel, buy meals, and pay the ticket prices I did last year for three of us (it cost almost as much to do that as her tour fees) especially since she's going off to college next year. We're going to try and catch nearby shows and volunteer more, but there's no way we can do the 3-day finals experience again. I'm an fan of DCI since the mid-80's off and on, and since I have a MM in the family, I love DC, A&E included. Would I like less of it . . . sometimes, but at this point I'll take all the drum corps I can get. ;)

How are "synths" currently used a design crutch? How exactly are synths used in that way? What! That's not at ALL what made drum corps unique! The reason why drum corps didn't use electronics back then was because it was unavailable and unpractical! Drum Corps is STILL unique even if it does use electronics. How has that STOPPED because of synths? The bolded statement is just silly. Creative thinking has as much to do with boundless possibilities as it does with thinking within limits. Frankly I think with synths it allows designers to get even more creative! Though it might be a creativity that you just don't appreciate.

i don't like electronics or amped singing, either. lots of people who love dci do, though.

That's some fancy crystal ball you've got there. Mind if I borrow it? I've got some lotteries to win.

One instance where being colorblind is a definite advantage. There isn't enough bleach in the world to get that red glare out of my eyes.

Failed proposal = mutiny? Newsflash: the proposal was not passed. The DCI membership apparently did however find some value in giving the new show format a trial. This idea that somehow a series of shows with 8 of last years finalists is somehow a *bad* thing is absurd. It's just like saying: Sound silly? Um...yes....yes it does. "Remember, fear is our best weapon. " - Capt. Bligh

There should be a law.