corpsband Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 (edited) the West Point uniform is a "costume" HAHAHAHAHAHAHA I'd love to see corpsband tell one of those WP grads that it is a "costume" it IS a costume just like every dress uniform is a costume. now -- if they were in their BDU's (and yeah -- i know all the branches now have their own version of BDU that are no longer called BDUs-- just because apparently) i would NOT say it's a costume. it's job appropriate clothing. nobody does their daily job in clothing anything like the Cadets / WP uniform. it's dress up clothing / ceremonial / aka a historical COSTUME. just like the vatican guards and the beefeaters. historically those costumes were once the real thing -- but not anymore. and i know plenty of former military who'd agree :-) in any case drum corps is live performance art so the word costume has always been appropriate! btw here's what the WP kids actually wear day to day. doesn't look much like what the cadets wear!! Edited October 1, 2016 by corpsband 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seen-it-all Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 please tell me which statement misrepresents your stance. i think you're right -- you tried to couch your arguments in much more flowery language. sorry for cutting right to the facts. but i don't think a single point i presented as yours is inaccurate at all. you just don't appreciate seeing them presented in such a stark fashion. i guess my question is: why do you object to laying things out in the open instead of trying to dress them up? Because I do not believe, nor have I ever stated, that "no one is clean anymore," or that "non-traditional uniforms are stupid," or that "marching is better than dance," or that "marching is harder than dance," for example. If I really believed those black and white generalizations, you better believe I would have said so. But those statements as you put them assign an "absolute" to my opinion that I simply do not share. There will inevitably be grey areas with these things, like the importance of context and design quality and of course performance that can tip the scales one way or the other. I felt I was clear about that with the language I used, which you dismiss as me trying to dress something up. So you ask what do I object to? People trying to put words in my mouth and concepts into my belief system that I never said or believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 (edited) Because I do not believe, nor have I ever stated, that "no one is clean anymore," or that "non-traditional uniforms are stupid," or that "marching is better than dance," or that "marching is harder than dance," for example. If I really believed those black and white generalizations, you better believe I would have said so. But those statements as you put them assign an "absolute" to my opinion that I simply do not share. There will inevitably be grey areas with these things, like the importance of context and design quality and of course performance that can tip the scales one way or the other. I felt I was clear about that with the language I used, which you dismiss as me trying to dress something up. So you ask what do I object to? People trying to put words in my mouth and concepts into my belief system that I never said or believe. no you didn't state those things. you just insinuated them. anyone who took the time to read your essay would not find it difficult to come to the same distillations which i posted in plain straightforward sentences. I was astonished at some of the glaring errors I saw from performer to performer from the top corps this year on some pretty basic stuff -- non-matching foot positions, body line discrepancies, etc. so this means top corps were clean , huh? ok ...wearing the onesies or pajamas .... It would be a crying shame if they felt they needed to resort to screen-printed leotards and this means you just love those non-traditional uniforms? i see. and instead of actually replying to any part of my reply and debating the points in a nice, rational fashion, you just complain that you didn't quite come out and say any of those statements. thanks for clearing that up. good talk. Edited October 1, 2016 by corpsband Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Dixon Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 it IS a costume just like every dress uniform is a costume and i know plenty of former military who'd agree :-) no. It's a uniform. A revered one. It's a dress uniform. My best friend AND my boss AND my nephew all went to West Point. They take a lot of pride in that uniform. As do many Cadets who have marched over the years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 (edited) no. It's a uniform. A revered one. It's a dress uniform. My best friend AND my boss AND my nephew all went to West Point. They take a lot of pride in that uniform. As do many Cadets who have marched over the years lol. no one said it wasn't a uniform. costume: a set of clothes for a particular occasion or purpose. pretty much nails a dress uniform. Edited October 1, 2016 by corpsband 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liahona Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 No one is clean anymore -- all you see is tics. Disagree but there is an element of truth to what you say. IMHO marching was never as pristine as we would like to think it was. Memory is a funny thing. We see what we want to see. But yes -- there are probably more errors today. OTOH there is far more content. Balances out for me. A real good friend of mine sat with me a few years ago (the year before the did away with the fan network 2013?) to watch drum corps videos in what could be considered a drum corps marathon...he had never seen ANY corps before but he was a military guy so drum corps had a bit of appeal...he wanted to see how drum corps progressed over the decades...so we watched several videos from each decade...I'd give him a little background of each corps...but other than that I kept mostly quiet for him to take in the entire experience on his own...It became quite obvious to him that corps from the 70's and 80's made less "errors" and as he put it...way better marchers...but I explained that focus as the activity developed was moving away from that aspect to allow for greater creativity in the activity to take place...it really was an observation more than anything else...not a like or dislike of either style IMO...we went to Allentown ( later that season) and his favorite show in 2014 was Oregon Crusaders...he couldn't understand why they didn't score better even...He also REALLY liked the Cadets as well...said they seemed to be the only corps out there who knew how to really march...not my words...I always find it interesting when non-drum corps people view shows...they see things from a whole different perspective it seems... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HockeyDad Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 lol. no one said it wasn't a uniform. costume: a set of clothes for a particular occasion or purpose. pretty much nails a dress uniform. It's a uniform. And it's not a costume. I was in the US Navy. It might be a dress uniform, but it never was nor is called a "costume" by anyone in the military. Sometimes you people try too hard. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 A real good friend of mine sat with me a few years ago (the year before the did away with the fan network 2013?) to watch drum corps videos in what could be considered a drum corps marathon...he had never seen ANY corps before but he was a military guy so drum corps had a bit of appeal...he wanted to see how drum corps progressed over the decades...so we watched several videos from each decade...I'd give him a little background of each corps...but other than that I kept mostly quiet for him to take in the entire experience on his own...It became quite obvious to him that corps from the 70's and 80's made less "errors" and as he put it...way better marchers...but I explained that focus as the activity developed was moving away from that aspect to allow for greater creativity in the activity to take place...it really was an observation more than anything else...not a like or dislike of either style IMO...we went to Allentown ( later that season) and his favorite show in 2014 was Oregon Crusaders...he couldn't understand why they didn't score better even...He also REALLY liked the Cadets as well...said they seemed to be the only corps out there who knew how to really march...not my words...I always find it interesting when non-drum corps people view shows...they see things from a whole different perspective it seems... This is true BUT the rest not so much in my opinion. The old so called Marching videos of the past certainly show alot more dirt than most of us remember with alot less difficulty in content. NOW, this doesnt mean for the time it wasn't magnificent but it also shows if not for the past we wouldn't be where we are today. We forget sometimes the marching aspect of the activity and it's roots come from post war . Just look at the terms we used more so in the past. All military inspired. Times are quite different today. Military itself is looked at very different today then it was post WW2 . Bottom line , I think it's just a matter of different times, different tastes, different goals, different members, different audiences , different instruction BUT if we only allow ourselves ( which many don't ) to just not be so territorial in our own personal times within the activity , old or new we will be able to see the members of today have more in common with members and the activity of the past as well as the past to the present. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 (edited) Agreed. The judging system is awful. They're pushing everyone in the same direction. I applaud Bluecoats sliding down ramps in undergarments but I don't want Cadets to do it with their classic uni nor do I want them wearing bodysuits with Cadets printed on the back. All styles should be embraced and judged accordingly. (Traditional, contemporary, hybrid etc). I totally agree that all styles should be embraced but let me ask you. AS far as judging pushing corps in the same direction. Did we think that in the past when we all had the same exact moves, concert formations to park and play, a starting line and finish line, squad turns inspections, color presentations,many( not all ) in very similar military type uniforms just different colors or that satin shirt, etc etc etc. just a thought. Edited October 2, 2016 by GUARDLING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seen-it-all Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 (edited) no you didn't state those things. For a reason. Because I don't believe them to be as black and white true as you make it sound like I do. If I did, I would have said so. you just insinuated them. anyone who took the time to read your essay would not find it difficult to come to the same distillations which i posted in plain straightforward sentences. You mean which you twisted through your own interpretation of things I never actually stated or believed. I was astonished at some of the glaring errors I saw from performer to performer from the top corps this year on some pretty basic stuff -- non-matching foot positions, body line discrepancies, etc. so this means top corps were clean , huh? ok Please tell me you're not this obtuse. "Some of the glaring errors" does not equal "none of it was clean." Do you honestly not understand the meaning behind that? I'd like to think anyone who took time to read my essay would be reasonable enough to understand that. ...wearing the onesies or pajamas .... It would be a crying shame if they felt they needed to resort to screen-printed leotards and this means you just love those non-traditional uniforms? i see. For the Cadets? The topic of this thread? Yes, I would not love to see them in non-traditional uniforms. And it they feel they are forced to go that route because that seems to be the only approach being rewarded. you better believe I have a problem with that. Which was the actual point of my essay, which you ignored completely and instead focused on putting words in my mouth and concepts into my belief systems that do not exist. For the record, there are many traditional uniforms I don't care for. And there have been some non-traditional uniforms that I'm perfectly fine with. It's this notion that we seem to be sliding down this path towards the non-traditional approach eventually becoming compulsory (while devaluing more traditional uniforms that in many cases are still every bit as effective as they've always been) that, again, is the point I was making which concerns me. and instead of actually replying to any part of my reply and debating the points in a nice, rational fashion, you just complain that you didn't quite come out and say any of those statements. Because I didn't say any of that stuff. And when I feel that someone is misrepresenting my thoughts and statements, then yeah, I'm going to some out and say so at that moment rather than waste my time replying to statements I never made or concepts I don't believe in. thanks for clearing that up. good talk. I do what I can. Besides, at least everyone now knows that YOU obviously hate all traditional uniforms and think that all moments of dance are inherently better and harder than any type of drill in drum corps because every single time a corps incorporates dance in their show, it's designed and performed flawlessly. Or do I misrepresent how you truly feel about the subject because you never actually said those things, probably don't believe those things to be 100% true, and are smart enough and experienced enough to have a variety of viewpoints (pro and con) about this topic which are more nuanced and complex than a simple generalization? Jeez man, I apologize for giving you that much credit. Now I know better. Good talk. Edited October 2, 2016 by seen-it-all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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