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I don't think any corps cuts more vets than another. That said, the general rule is that the devil you know is better than the devils you don't know, which is why vets don't get cut particularly often. I'm assuming that the OP is a vet of a corps and got cut this weekend. I'm also assuming that he did something to get himself cut.

To add to that, also sometimes certain vets are prima donnas who have a holier-than-though type attitude and think they're above high standards. They don't put in sufficient work, maybe are ticks on the field who complain about not getting tons of sleep, or getting sick: they complain about sun burn and receiving criticism, and other things that practically everyone who's marching in their corps + everyone who's ever marched in ANY corps goes through. Then the staff decide the prima donna vet is in no way worth having around anymore when there are plenty of rookies who will work just as hard/harder WITHOUT all of the extra BS and complaining. I wouldn't say this is super common, but it's definitely not unheard of. Having those types of members = a cancer that could infect and bring down the corps and removing said cancer is often the best approach.

Exhibit A, Horn Teacher, that entitlement doesn't just exist in the so called new generation.

Performed with INT one summer. I thought I was going to be section leader the following year. I worked hard, trained hard, and was cut the following November. Something about not using turf spray at all the prior year.....or maybe it was deodorant. neither here nor there.

Sounds like someone was unprepared and got cut. Two threads on DCP to vent? Very professional.

Profiles in Music in Red Lion, PA-Near York, PA in April, week after Easter I do believe. Speaking of which, I think I'll get out my P-R Bari and practice this afternoon to get even with the bleepin' dogs up in the apartment above me. I can practice almost the whole show on the brute and honk off the dogs to boot.

Edit: My apologies - I shouldn't really get into a political/historical discussion unrelated to marching music in this forum.

It's also very likely that they were cut for other reasons than playing or marching ability. In fact, I'd almost bet on it.

Anyone who plays or tosses knows that, if you take several months off, you get rusty, and obviously auditions are no time to be rusty. While I appreciate the tone, and especially at a corps that has several hundred kids auditioning, if a kid gets rusty while another kid shines well above expectations, I'm not convinced that "earning" a spot just because you're a vet meets the high level of expectations that the activity promotes.

Totally agree - anyone that knows me knows I love Gene. Can't say I've loved much about my most recent exposures to Pete, who seems very churlish, but I'll go on with my opinion that he's a serious nominee for Sunriser of the ever award. Frank would know so much more about the Sunrisers of Classical time, and you guys would know the ins and outs of the 80s and then I know nothing after 90 so I'm not going to be made Supreme Judge on this one. To circle back to Elphaba's french horn folks, clearly you're dead on - I don't think Frank Bergdoll ever lost a contest, and I heard him play when he played for St Kevins and thought he was great - I was really a kid at that point. I listened to Danny as an adult, and as a friend so my judgment is somewhat compromised - it's hard to argue about Frank, or his dad for that matter. I did hear Hy play a lot, and I heard Pepe quite a bit, in fact I might have been responsible for most of his latter day body of work with Hurcs. I think Danny was a better FH than those two guys, although Hy was a genius and Pepe the ultimate showman and a fine trumpet player. Frank knows how Sasso was on horn and Steve Buglino. I only heard them as a little kid. Oooh, and Riggie Laus, whom I only heard at the Fleetwood School of Music with Pittsburgh - can't leave him out of any FH discussion. Some might even say Arnie Juliano - I'll bow to Fish on Arnie. So I'm sticking to my opinion, regardless of how misguided, but to Elphaba, your knowledge of the activity blows me out of the water 9.9 times out of 10 and I think I'm being generous to myself. Even I'm inclined to accept your opinion over mine. Even Andy, and he's a #Q@*iing drummer, (albeit a member of the Buglers' Hall of Fame). OK, going to bed. Thanks for reading the first two lines.

I once called for a senior historical thread, like the junior forum has. So far it hasn't happened, but after re-reading my original submission for the DCW history book volume 2, i have decided to post the entire, unedited and updated version. I hope you all enjoy. The Westshoremen By Jeff Ream If there is one thing about the Westshoremen drum and Bugle Corps that is consistent, it is that the corps had ups and downs every so many years. Despite the lows, the corps has been a VFW, American Legion and DCA World Champion in its history. Founded in 1946 along the banks of the Susquehanna River in Wormleysburg PA, the corps was originally named the Longshoremen. Many of the founding members were former members of the old Harrisburg Privateers junior corps, which disbanded at the onset of World War II. The corps quickly rose to prominence that first year, placing 4th at VFW finals, concluding with the VFW state titles in 1951, 1952, and 1953, and the VFW National title in 1952. The corps also won the PA VFW title in 1953.Director Jack Kaufman led his troops home victorious, only to find trouble waiting. It seemed the famed union of the same name issues with the usage of that name being used by the corps. The union did indeed sue the corps for misuse of the name and right away the corps changed the name to the Westshoremen, as the post the corps used was on the west bank of the Susquehanna, across from Harrisburg, PA. The union then dropped the lawsuit. Shortly after this, the corps performed for President Eisenhower. They placed 4th at the 1957 VFW finals. Known affectionately as The Worms (short for Wormleysburg) represented VFW post 1462. One of the early members is Roger Hall, who invented the breakaway base commonly used in baseball world wide. During this same time, in Millersburg PA, representing American Legion Post 326, the Bonnie Scots were born. Clad in red kilts and tall black plumes, this corps rose slowly, but surely, and captured the PA State Championship. In 1959, the corps merged with the Bonnie Scots of Millersburg PA. The seeds had been planted a few months earlier. membership in both corps was shrinking, and for a while, both reduced their schedules to parades only. Both of the corps were hired to represent fire companies at a parade in Carlisle PA in September 1959. The night before the parade, the decision to merge was made. At the end of the parade, the corps joined ranks and marched back to the beginning of the parade.. and the merger was born! By far the largest corps ever massed in the area, it was quite a sight to see the Bonnie Scots in red kilts and tall black plumes side by side with the Westshoremen, in their blue satin uniforms with black slacks and white shakos. The decision was made to return to competition, representing both AL post 232, and a new VFW home, post 6704 from Mechanicsburg, PA. The uniforms saw the corps stay in black and blue, but with a sash of red, black and blue to allow the Bonnie Scots tradition to carry on. The 60s saw not as much competitive success, though the corps did place 2nd at the 1963 and 1966 State VFW championships. The corps competed in Class B, competing against such former greats as the Tyrone Gardner Guards (who the corps finally defeated in 1961), the Hanover Lancers, Emmaus Sentinels, Milton Keystoners, Hershey Choclatiers, and Bangor Yellow Jackets. The corps joined DCA in 1965, although not attending finals until 1967. Notable names for instructors during this era were John Flowers and Bob Zarfoss for percussion, Frank Ferraro, Skip Groff, Bill Saltzer on brass. The Guard was handled at the time by Pop Hoyer and Barb Flowers. The director thru this era was T. V. OConnell, who passed away in 1967. OConnell passed away on June 23, 1967, while the corps was in Chambersburg, PA, preparing for a competition. With a heavy heart, the corps performed that night, and dedicated the season to their beloved former director. Billy Saltzer took over the reigns of leadership. The season also saw the beginning of the corps home show, in Carlisle, PA. Review of the corps carried on until 1989. In 1967, the corps placed 10th at the DCA championships. The show consisted of Cabaret, You Set My Heart To Music, I Believe and Love Letters. In 1968 and 1969, the corps placed 12th at DCA prelims as well as placing 2nd at the 1969 RCA championships. In 1970, the corps placed 11th at DCA prelims and 4th at the 1970 RCA finals. 1971 saw the corps slip to 15th at DCA and 1972 saw them in 14th. After the 1972 season the corps went inactive for 1973. Billy Saltzer was the director until the corps disbanded. Many members, including longtime snare line stalwarts John Skee Derr and George Big daddy Satch Satchell, left for the Reading Buccaneers, and more such as Wally Ream and Jim Magilton left for the Yankee Rebels. The corps once again reorganized in early 1974, with Hall of Famer Larry Hershman at the helm. The name was changed to Westshoremen, Inc., and with a dedicated group of veterans, they began the long climb back to DCA finalist status. The uniforms returned to the original Looks, blue satin tops, white shakos and black pants. The corps got off to a late start, not even learning drill until the day after the Hershey Show. The first season produced the corps lowest known score, 37.35, in Amherst MA, a week before finals. At prelims, the corps rose to a 41.00 and last place at DCA prelims. not the results desired, but, back on the field. The membership did not give upthey founded the Serande in Brass indoor concert, and began recruiting many band directors in the area, hoping they would join in as well as their students. Slowly, it began to pay off. In 1975, the corps stayed in 15th place (out of 19 this time) and saw their score jump 22 points. Show selection was Triumphant March, Livin for the City, Latina and My Way In 1976, the corps rose to 11th place, good for Associate status in DCA, as well as 3rd at the RCA finals. After the season, the corps bought the Blue devils old uniforms, which were almost identical to The corps, the only difference being Black Aussies. 1977 was the corps return to DCA finals in 1977 with a 10th place finish. 1978, the corps rose to 9th at DCA, but the crowning moment of the season is when the corps traveled to New Orleans, LA, to compete in the American Legion National Championships, representing the Linglestown, PA post 272. There, the corps competed at the world famous Superdome, and defeated the Chicago Connection 77.00 to 60.45 for the crown. The corps also beat its arch-rivals, the Reading Buccaneers for the first time that season. Adding Rich Templin for the visual staff was the start of something special! 1979 began the building of what insiders referred to where we want to be status. Show design was improved, as Hershman began recruiting some of the best and brightest to go with Rich Templin: Ric Colletti on percussion, Ray Eyler (who has worked with everybody) and Dave Rohrer (Bluecoats) on Brass. New uniforms were designed, all black with a powder blue sash and plume on a black aussie. With other local corps starting to fall by the wayside, as well as people from around the state deciding to travel to Harrisburg, the corps began to grow. The 1979 season saw a 6th place finish at DCA, the highest yet, and its first win in DCA competition ever! The energetic Show started with Got to Get To It from Chorus Line, and added What I did For Love, Granada Smoothie, Sing, Sing, Sing and The Impossible Dream. The corps also defended their American Legion title by default, as no senior contest was held that year. 1980 saw more improvement, and also one of the corps funniest moments in history. En route to a 5th place finish at DCA finals, the corps was performing their closer of Impossible Dream, which included a color pres, and a huge American Flag to be unfurled. Underneath the flag was several drum cases filled with Doves to be released. Only one problem the birds, being kept in the dark, refused to fly away, and instead had to be chased off the field. Chief Judge Walter Kelly chased several off by firing the timing pistol, and members came back to retrieve the straggling birds, so the Sunrisers could take the field. The corps also placed 4th at the American Legion Championships. The show consisted of Journey to the center of the Earth, What I Did For Love, Spanish Dreams, Sing, Sing, Sing and The Impossible Dream. One of the highlights was the mellophone solos of Sylvia (then Hernandez, for a while Filipelli and now Perbetsky). The staff remained intact. 1981 saw a disappointing 6th place finish, and staff changes were made. One early season highlight was the corps singing Music, but at mid season the singing was removed and a reprise of The Impossible Dream was inserted to end the show. Journey and Spanish Dreams remained, Big Noise From Winnetka and a drum solo of Third Piano Concerto were added. White capes were also added to the uniform. For 1982, Frank Dorritie of Blue Devils fame was imported from California to write and teach the horn line. Eric Kitchenman joined Rich Templin on the visual staff. Hall of Famer Billy Kauffman, Robb Mueller of Colts later fame on percussion, and even Ralph Hardimon consulted. Drum major Tommy Sipe was featured as a rifle virtuoso. And the corps knew this could be the year. The show was Blues In The Night, Razulli, Icarus, Big Noise From Winnetka and All The Things You Are. It was decided that the capes would be dropped. Also, no more skirts for the guard, as males joined the guard. Coming out of the blocks hot and heavy, the corps walked away undefeated until late July, then continued to win several more shows. However, the late surging Sunrisers passed the corps, and while the best finish yet, 2nd place with a tie for high GE was felt to be a disappointment. The season was dedicated to Benny Behrens, long time equipment manager. he had been with the corps for over 30 years. Also of note, long time member Al Beran was elected to the World Drum Corps Hall of Fame. 1983 again featured many of the same players and a powerful corps, but 4th place was the end result. The show consisted of Blues and All The Things You Are, with Everybody Loves The Blues and Love For Sale inserted in the middle. The season was dedicated to Norm Sedlak, a member of the A squad who had come to join the corps after the Yankee Rebels disbanded. In October, it was announced that the management team was leaving, and all of the equipment was sold to the California Dons JR corps. A group of dedicated members met at a fire hall in Harrisburg, and vowed that day the corps would be back, and even performed at the Serenade in Brass concert in April. Dan Bowman took the reins as director, and brought in John Chamberlin and Dick Eschenmann to help the administrative side of the house. But, things fell apart until late June, when it was decided to field a corps at prelims. The members referred to it as the six week tour and in six weeks, got a show on the field, performed as best as could be expected, and ended up in 15th at DCA prelims. The show consisted mainly of songs from 82 and 83, such as Blues in The Night, Big Noise From Winnetka, and All The Things You Are. In 1985, the corps placed 12th at DCA, falling back to 13th in 1986. The corps also competed in some ICA shows during this time. In 1987, the corps again rose to 12th, with a core group of members that were determined to get the corps back into finals. Show highlights included Walk him Up The Stairs, Johnny One Note, Big Noise From Winnetka and Music (with the singing from 1981) and the Impossible Dream. Steve Filipelli and Chris Poole led the percussion. 1988, a larger corps, with some new staff faces achieved that goal, and the corps placed 7th at DCA finals. The show consisted of Funeral for a Friend, Colas Beurgnon Overture, Claires Song, Take the A Train, and One Night Only (from Dreamgirls). New uniforms were signed: White bib pants, which had a blue top with a white W cut into it. White Aussies completed the new look. 1989 saw more change as the corps went to a more modern jazz approach, and hired Dan Delong (Bucs, Shore and Bluecoats) as percussion caption head and John Arietano (Sunrisers, Skyliners, Hurcs) to head the brass. Crossmen legend Mark Thurston arranged for the percussion. To add to the uniform, blue sparkles were added to the W outline on the uniform top. The corps lived under the motto of One More Once and never knew how good they were until it was over, fighting with Steel City, Empire and the Crusaders all year for the middle of the pack. Playing Explosion, Strawberry Soup and Spirit of St. Frederick, the corps oozed aggressive jazz. When the dust cleared, the corps ended up 5th, cracking 90 for the first time in DCA competition. The percussion section especially was happy, claiming the high execution trophy. 1990 was to be the year. Arientano and Delong remained, and Rich Templin (Shore, Cabs, Sky and Bluecoats fame) and George Thompson were brought in to run the drill and guard. This group stayed through 1992. Helmets replaced the Aussie hats, a touch of pink was added to the uniform top, and the guard wore blue spandex with white tops. The show was Suite For Jazz Orchestra and Gershwin: Portrait In Jazz. The corps was huge, and good. Throughout the season, the corps traded victories with the Caballeros and Empire Statesmen, and won the Scranton Regional. The percussion section had one loss to its name until finals. In fact, the week before finals, the corps had the highest score in all of DCA. But, prelims found the corps in 4th, and finals did not change. The percussion section also ended in 4th. This led to much frustration among the members, and 1991 saw a smaller corps that landed in 7th place at finals. Music selected for the year was City of Angels, Ocean Parkway and Bacchanlia. 1992 saw corps full of talent, but show design issues landed them in 6th. Music was Taboo, Street Dancing, and Bues In The Night. The season and the victory were dedicated to Judy Parfet, the corps long time souvenier person. Former director Larry Hershman was inducted into the World Drum Corps Hall of Fame this year also. 1993 saw a smaller corps under new director Dan Rippon, as the corps stepped away from jazz to perform the music of Yanni, and despite its size, landed in 6th. Percussion was still led by Delong, with John Bugosh and Walt Street handling the brass, Mike Herr and Tim Newlin doing the guard. 1994 saw an even smaller corps, and a show that left members and fans alike confused, and the corps ended up 10th in DCA competition. The show theme was The Four Seasons and the music was First Circle Carnival, Autumn Leaves and Cathedral In A Suitcase. The season also brought the passing of Al Beran, long time member of the A squad and World Hall of Fame member. That fall, in October it was decided that the corps was done. Finances were a mess, and the corps was in the red. Director Dan Rippon resigned. However, several members rallied around Jerry Mace, who stated he would take over and get the corps in the title hunt as well as in the black. and boy did he get the corps in the black. Uniforms that is. When the 1995 edition of the corps debuted at Serenade in Brass, the corps was decked in black head to toe. and huge! Black shakos, black shirts and overlays, which had a silver sash. Arientano and Delong were back for the music, Terry Martin and Tim Newlin did the drill and guard. The corps served notice they were back, and even the members wondered if a worst to first finish was possible. With a show of Blues In The Night, Strawberry Soup, Twilight Tones and Suite for Jazz Orchestra, the corps continued to climb the ladder all season, and again the percussion section lead the way, walking into finals weekend undefeated. The corps entered finals 3rd, .5 behind the Empire Statesmen. The percussion section had a bad prelims show but remained unbeaten and on a missionthe corps knew they couldnt catch the Cabs, but it wanted Empire. That night, at finals, the corps performed the best show in corps history, to leapfrog over Empire for 2nd, and capture the percussion trophy. Yet, this corps wasnt done. The corps knew 1996 was its chance, and began in October. The uniform was modified to add a new overlay, which was blue at the top, with silver on the bottom.the dividing line was in the form of a W. The staff was back. There was little turnover, and many people tried out for the spots that did exist. The corps show was based on the 50th anniversary of the corps, titled Suite for Westshore featured Granada Smoothie, All the Things You Are, Explosion, Marching Season By Yanni, Carnival, Suite For Jazz ending a reprise of Blues In The Night, which had snippets of the Impossible Dream thrown in. The corps lost early on to the Cabs, and never looked back until late seasonin fact, the corps won the famous Barnum Festival, and even won Drum Major in what was known as Cabs turf! Other highlights were winning the Hershey show, which was basically Westshore turf, and many alumni were on hand to celebrate the victory. In August the corps traveled to Orlando, FL and performed in exhibition at DCI semi finals, earning several standing ovations. The next weekend, the corps tied Empire at Syracuse, making the fight for finals more interesting. DCA prelims found the corps in 2nd, .9 behind the Cabs. Yet, the members dug deep, and managed to come out of Rochester NY with the world title, tying for GE and winning all percussion captions, with a corps record score 96.9, .1 ahead of the Cabs. The impossible Dream had been accomplishedthe DCA title was coming home to Harrisburg. However the off-season was rough on the corps. Many members cited burnout and retired. The management announced the formation of the Westshoremen Cadets Jr. corps, and when membership for the Jr. corps was small, it was announced if you were in the senior corps and under 21, you had to do both. This led to more members, mostly under 21, leaving the corps. To add to the problems, the corps suffered many financial setbacks, one of which saw a member paying for the entire corps to return to PA from Orlando FL. The corps had again been invited to perform at DCI semis, but the buses had been locked due to non-payment. The junior corps, in its only year of existence placed 31st at Dci Division 2/3 prelims, with a score of 52.2. In the end, the corps placed 7th at DCA, the staff was fired, and it was decided the junior corps would go on its own. Much confusion reigned afterwards, as to who was left in charge, who owned what etc. many threats of legal action were made, and many long time relationships harmed. To say this period more than any other led to the demise of the corps would be an understatement. Many of its repercussions are felt today, and some threats of legal action still persist. Once again, many members banded together to keep the corps going into 1998, with Ann Beck and Bill Toomey leading the administration. Despite a strong showing at Serenade In Brass in April, the corps only participated at the DCA mini corps competition. Many former members retired or left to march elsewhere. The Board of Directors also had large turnover as few could agree on the direction of the corps. 1999 saw the corps back on the field in Class A status, placing 4th, where they would place again in 2000 and 2001. 2002 saw the corps inactive, as its few remaining members went to march with the Skyliners, and no plans have been announced for 2003. The name has become more visible however, due to the formation of the Westshoremen Alumni corps, which performs annually at the Serenade In Brass indoor concert held annually in April. Growing Steadily every year, this past year marked the largest version yet, and arguably, the best performing as well. Will Westshore return to the field? Many rumors abound. After the late 90s much equipment is needed, and many local ties need to be repaired. But stranger things have happened in the history of this corps. Many thanks to: Wally Ream, Rich Sennett, Steve Filipelli, Ron Allard and Chris Maher, Jodeen Popps History of drum corps and especially Larry Hershman for his allowing me to borrow his Lamberton award winning Westshoremen-Bonnie Scots drum and bugle corps essay

The Kilties would like to announce Mr. Dan Farrell and Mr. Dennis Argul as clinicians/consultants. Mr. Farrell will be with the corps for a portion of the January 31st/February 1st camp weekend. Mr Argul will be with the corps for the entire February 28th/March 1st camp weekend. Additional news to follow.................. The Kilties are presently accepting applications for membership for the 2015 season. Visit The Kilties website for further information on membership and the organization as a whole: http://www.kilties.com ~Since 1934~

Just read on FB that the Hawthorne Muchachos are sponsoring a stage show on May 9th in New Brunswick N.J. The show is called "An Evening with the Corps." That has a familiar ring to it. It will be held at the State Theater in New Brunswick and has a start time of 7 p.m. Corps scheduled to appear are: The Hawthorne Caballeros, The Hawthorne Caballeros Alumni, Fusion Corps, The Bridgemen Alumni Corps, Blessed Sacrament Alumni and The Saints Brigade. Very nice 6 corps show and about one month before Fusion and Cabs kick off there season.

Go after your dream man. Its not unheard of for a first year member to make stars. Even the top level groups take first year members with no drum corps experience if they are ready for it. The only way you'll know is to show up and try out. There are options to get a year of experience if you find out you aren't ready the first time out.

X was better. For merchandise anyway,

... ... Yeah. Mike

the reservations are not made - BUT if I hear the term "wintery mix" again today I am going to beat something to a bloody pulp!

You are describing what I assume was your corps' policy. Most corps who audition vets every year from scratch make their policy well-known, and members know what they're getting into (i.e. they know they have to audition the next year). Whatever works for each corps = the appropriate measure for each corps. What might've worked for your corps may not work for other corps, and vice versa.

I don't know...that camel meat might give me some post digestion gas...

Ah yes. The technical term is "sophomoritis."

There definitely does seem to have been something of a cultural shift over the years in this country from accepting what transpires and carrying on, to begging/demanding/suing to get what one believes was due in the first place.

I'm sorry, but all of this reeks of nothing more than contemporary society's expectations of "entitlement." Maybe that's my old age coming through...but that's how I feel. Those of us dealing with the day-to-day real world know that we are entitled to nothing...or at least most of us know that. Just because I might have had a winning (or rather, successful. One may be successful without necessarily being a champion) band or bands "x" number of years ago doesn't automatically indicate that I am a worthy teacher today. And as hard as it may be to accept, the same should hold true for Corps marching members. Please keep in mind that I am saying this with no intentions of being harsh...just realistic according to my own personal philosophy.

My personal feeling is that what a director owes to his marching members is to make them the best group possible. And sometimes that means saying goodbye to past members, if there are new members available who will better help the corps attain that goal. It could be an issue of talent, attitude, finances ... but a director owes THAT pursuit of greatness to the other 149 members more than he owes loyalty to the 1 member. It's a tough pill to swallow, but it's part and parcel of any elite competitive group.

Sometimes certain vets barely made it in there first year and think they're entitled to a spot but in reality if they've been outperformed by the rest of the corps during their first summer and then are being outperformed by the auditionees it really isn't fair to the corps to keep you along.

Why would you EVER expect to get into a corps if you're less talented than someone who put in much more work for auditions? Achievement and effort come hand in hand in any type of performance activity. If a vet decides to not put the effort into maintaining excellence, they will not achieve in their auditions and rightfully get cut.

It's not a "lifetime achievement" award.

You show up unprepared, you get cut. That's it. Doesn't matter who you are. It's not about loyalty.

Two atoms are walking down the street. One says to the other, " I think I've lost an electron." Other, "Are you sure?" First, " I'm POSITIVE" ba-dum-bum

Keep in mind that, while you are correct in your comparison, the reason DCI has not been a good fundraiser is that it has been, essentially, prevented from doing so by the BOD. I don't think it's fair and balanced to suggest that DCI has somehow failed in something they are prevented from doing.

the sea of black in the audience at the Dream was a sight to behold... I do believe they all worshipped at St. Caballero's

"Best French Horn Buglers:" Danny Fitzpatrick's reputation is very well known, and he is VERY deserving of his inclusion into the prestigious BHOF. Another GREAT FHB player that deserves mention is Frank "Buzzy" Bergdol, soloist for the great St Kevins Emerald Knights. "Buzzy" is also a member of the BHOF, as is John Sasso, another GREAT FHB player and music/writer arranger for the Mineola Sunrisers. I am sure there are several more. Elphaba WWW

Wow... what is the story behind that, if you can share it here?

Gene Bennett was another of the "drive the bus" guys for Sun along with Pete and others in the 1970s. His visual designs in 1976 through 1979 helped separate us from the rest of the pack. To say nothing of his teaching... which was top-notch. And just a great man, on top of all that.

I will do that, next time I talk with him!!! You're right about Danny Fitzpatrick. Insanely awesome on the French horn... and merely great on mellophone. LOL.

OK, Gary is a good choice. The thing with Pete vs Gary - Gary was a good player and a great administrator/director. Pete literally did everything - he played at a high level - he demanded that everyone around him play at a high level - he kept it serious and intense - he also made people laugh - he was respected across the activity as a player/instructor, really whatever it took. He did it for a long time - decades, or probably 3 marriages (maybe 2?) Gary is probably the reason that the Sunrisers still exist - he shepherded them through the worst of bad years. Pete I believe is the reason the Sunrisers took a fairly mediocre team and made them burn at a blaze hotter than anyone in the history of DCA. No one has been better than the 80s Sunrisers, starting at around 1976. Most folks forget that the 1976 corps was essentially the same as the 1975 corps, with the addition of Dennis and his team. But Dennis couldn't have done it himself. The brass had to get 10X better. I remember driving to Poughkeepsie once a week in the Fall of '75 into Spring '76 with Pete working with the additions. He was the driver behind every part of the brass improvement that occurred. I'm not taking anything away from Bunyon, Screech, or even myself, but China was the sparkplug that wouldn't let you rest until we were great. I love Gary - he's a unique individual - but I think HE would probably agree that China was the straw that stirred the drink. And don't sell yourself short - you've brought incredible honor to the orange and blue team over decades with your grace and style, as Andy has to the Gabarina boys. but do me a favor, without laying out a case beforehand, ask Lenny who the greatest Sunriser of all times was... As far as best french horn - I've heard a bunch of them - including God himself - but the greatest french horn player that I ever heard was Danny Fitzpatrick. I was so thrilled to hang his Buglers' Hall of Fame medal around his neck last Spring, but conscious of the silliness that I had been inducted before he was. Life is funny sometimes.

Thanks for the mention... but I'm not even in the same time zone with the other names. Not even close. My personal choice for all-time greatest Sunriser... Gary Williams. The others you mentioned are right up there with him. Certainly the China brothers. Like you said.... without Pete and Dave, the corps does not win those DCA titles.

I had a long discussion in 1976 about the fact that Sky had won "Best Brass" at DCA, which bothered me - might not be 76 by the way. When I got to tuning he said "They don't try to tune to a rigid 440 or anything else - they leave a very broad pitch center and always feel pretty close to on it. They don't try to play music that has a legitimate template to compare them to. You don't get to say "Man this isn't as good as the way the NY Philharmonic played 'Procession of the Nobles' or "American in Paris". They don't try to sound like the Chicago Symphony - they try to sound like the Skyliners, and this line has achieved that sound." I couldn't argue. Made my hair hurt, but I couldn't argue. I hope that the new Skyliners learn that lesson as I think they're picking shows that are going to doom them to not making finals. They need to channel Hy, and Hugh Mahon, and Eric Perriloux to figure out what pieces of music would give them the most Skyliner sound. No one's been able to do it since Hy died in '84, and the DCA needs a Skyliners the way DCI needs Madison. The previous message was completely my opinion, and does not reflect the opinions of the Sunrisers, Hurricanes, Archie, Boston, The Buglers' Hall of Fame, or the WDCHoF, or any other legitimate group with actual informed opinions from smart people, i.e. not me.

Dirt was a combination of a wonderful personality and a great showman. You could say he was a great musician because he communicated raw passion in his playing that was instantly understood by his audience, which is what music is all about. I doubt he could have played with many other ensembles, but he fit in to Sky like a (middle) finger in a glove. I liked him a lot. One of his mello-mates is of course, Pete China, the soul of the 70s and 80s Sunrisers, IMO one half of the reason for their success - his brother Dave was the other half. He willed them to success. Ruined his personal life because of his love of the corps - and the love probably frequently felt unrequited - corps don't "love back" the way they should. In my opinion, in the running for "Greatest Sunriser of All Times" which is s formidable list that included Dorritie, Murphy, Sassos three, Fran, Screech, and dozens of others. I have yet to meet anyone in my life that loved an organization or a team with such a pure, passionate love. I'm just glad it didn't kill him.

Strong baritone line on that 65 recording also. Funny, some guy yells "Give Em He!!" after Sing Sing Sing. They just did. :) Sun's Mice???

Screech was not yet in the Sunisers in '65. I believe he arrived in '66 or '67. John Sasso was the 4th mello in '65, having played French Horn up until then. (gsksun is correct about the other 3, and Ol' Mac being a kind of homage to the Skyliners, albeit with a few more key changes than DBTS.) Also, that's Billy Cobham on the "Sing, Sing, Sing" drum solo, the intro to which being my one and only recorded duet with him. Billy is returning to drum corps this year, on staff with the Bluecoats. Look out!

"1965 Moments": Royal Airs win at CYO Nationals. After having lost to most of the Mid West's big guns, including the Casper Troopers "Big Blue" topped the list at CYO and did not lose another contest in 1965. The "Triple Crown" of CYO, VFW and Legion Nationals would all be theirs. Elphaba WWW

Judy!!!! Wow... talk about a Sunriser stalwart. A great lady!!!!

Oh yeah, him... Wayne would have been 14 or maybe 15. We grew up competing against each other - he in the Smithtown Freelancers, I in Oceanside. My brass quartet used to compete against his of himself, Mike Conlon, Nick Yaworski, and Judy Foster (who became the first female brass player in DCA with Sunrisers). Good times.

Oh man, I tripped over this recording accidentally - I had almost forgotten how much I loved 1965 Sun! Deliberto, Buglino, Sasso(s), and whatshisname - the other top soprano? Bob Murphy on Goldfinger solo if I remember correctly. They'd laugh at these charts now, but in 1965 on those horns? "Old MacDonald" still cracks me up, as does Orus Cavnor's (sp?) drum book. The mellos are (literally) wailing the entire show. Dinosaur Nirvana - especially if you're an orange and (jet) blue dino. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EMrhG4Cb5o

So ... just a few added notes ... the past and the present performance wise mixes beautifully ... the BHOF shows have seen competitors from current field corps, alumni from the past, and local HS groups come together and display an array of high caliber performances through the years ... we've even had some impromptu "exhibitions" by various HOFers ... and that is the intangible ... the spontaneous interaction between the performer, the crowd ... and sometimes the MC ... what will be integral to success is the venue in which the show is held ... it must be close knit ... it must be one room with one stage ... and it must have food an libation for the crowd close by ... this mix has proven to have a positive effect on both the performer and fan ... these shows, along with the display of talent, are just plain FUN! :-)

you in a cowgirl outfit... now that's a picture I'd pay for Merry Christmas EVERYONE especially the Queen and her Mom...

Happy Holidays as well to Don and the wife - hope this season brings peace and enjoyment.

Ditto on all of the above ... including the sheep thing ... I think ... stopped in on Sky Alumni's "Christmas" reheasal yesterday ... lots of nice sounds coming from the early 60's versions of Slaughter, Alabama, and Lullaby of Birdland ... plentiful food and drink afterwards ... shades of the old Salderini Post days ... To all in Wholand, a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! :-)

Fran, You left out Sheep Shearing Day in Madagascar. Peace and goodwill to all, (even the bandos). F

Happy Holidays to all you "Guess Who" folks out there!!! Whatever you celebrate... Christmas, Chanukah, Kwanzaa, May Day, Happy Hour, every third Tuesday, whatever.... have a great time, and safe travels if you're heading anywhere!!