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Amen Brasso. This thread is a big rush to claim the coveted victimhood status. A bit over the top. I don't care about anybody's lifestyle choices. I have enough of my own flaws and problems to work on to care about other people's lifestyle choices. It's the getting all in my face about it that bugs the crap out of me.

Now not wanting to judge on appearance BUT anyone else find it a SCARY PIC.lol

DCI will be in a position where they have to get commitments from their partners during Championships Week that they will serve everyone equally and make sure that information is very visible. This is like going back in time 50 years. Ultimately, I think this law will get thrown out because it grants discriminatory rights to religious people that it does not grant to non-religious. I can refuse to serve you because of my religion while Bob cannot refuse to serve you because he has no religion. I cannot fathom why that should be alright.

One of the most disappointing things about this thread is that it has made me more aware of the thoughts of other posters, and perhaps naively so, I had little clue just exactly how such a diverse activity still had participants who were so not in tune with what DCI has become (though they make attempts to rationalize opinions). DCI has come a long way. There is quite a journey to go.

Here is a letter signed by dozens of legal scholars - including several IU law professors I know personally - which, among other things, explains why the Indiana RFRA differs from the state and federal RFRAs of the 90s. Though I recommend reading the entire letter you can jump to page 5 for the relevant information.

Well, society's views at large are in the process of changing on this subject. Gay marriage was almost unimaginable in 1993, for instance, and not just in Mississippi--and the possibility of the Supreme Court legalizing gay marriage nationally is a big impetus behind the passage of this law. It is something of a last-ditch effort to arrest the change, and in the next decade or so, the Indiana legislature will write a new law that either overturns this one completely or prohibits it from applying to instances of discrimination based on sexual orientation. So I think a better thought experiment would be imagining DCI holding its finals Instead in Jackson, MS in 1963 (yes, I know DCI didn't exist then) and to consider race rather than sexual orientation. Or take this simple question: if not for federal law, this state law would allow an Indiana business to deny service to a mixed-race couple on religious grounds, as for example the Exodus passage that JimF-LowBari has mentioned. Would you be OK with that? And if not, what's the difference between that example and the one which DCI faces? That Shakespeare passage you cite, by the way, from the Scottish play, reads more fully: "To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow, Creeps in this petty pace from day to day, To the last syllable of recorded time; And all our yesterdays have lighted fools The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle! Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player, That struts and frets his hour upon the stage, And then is heard no more. It is a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing." So what he's saying is that a person's life is the tale which signifies nothing. Your life, my life, his life: everything that we do or say, in the really long term, is meaningless. And yet here you are posting along with the rest of us.

Garfield: As some others have attempted to point out, this statement strikes me as disingenuous, and incorrectly conflates case law over the past decades across the country with the current law in question (and many others like it), which are trying to ride the coat-tails of prior precedent to accomplish something entirely different. Gov. Pence signed the bill in a small private ceremony, with several invited religious personnel. But prominent among the others invitees to the ceremony were various conservative lobbyists who were behind this law, including Eric Miller, the founder and head of Advance America, whose website makes no bones about the real purpose: Churches, Christian businesses and individuals deserve protection from those who support homosexual marriages and those who support government recognition and approval of gender identity (men who dress as women). SB 101 will help provide the protection! Here are just three examples where SB 101 will help: Christian bakers, florists and photographers should not be punished for refusing to participate in a homosexual marriage! A Christian business should not be punished for refusing to allow a man to use the women’s restroom! A church should not be punished because they refuse to let the church be used for a homosexual wedding! The below pic was tweeted from the ceremony by Micah Clarke of the American Family Associate of Indiana, another conservative lobbyist backing the bill. Eric Miller is directly behind the governor, and Micah is next to him, with glasses and beard. Their placement directly behind the governor is not accidental. These were the same lobbyists, mind you, that were the strongest proponents of Indiana's attempted ban on gay marriage last year. Edit: and I believe the gentleman behind Clarke is Curt Smith, leader of the Indiana Family Institute, another conservative lobbyist group backing the bill. 2nd Edit: and just for clarification, my personal distaste for this law (and others of its ilk) goes far beyond its potential affect on the LGBT community

Welcome….. Drum Corps Associates newest member the Erie Thunderbirds Drum and Bugle Corps from Erie, Pa. The evaluation has been going on for the past 2 months and with the combined efforts of Lois Tierno reviewing all the paperwork and Dick Fischette doing the on site evaluation, we are confident that they are ready to compete as a DCA corps! Please welcome their director Sean Bartlett and the entire staff and members to DCA! You can find information on their website: eriethunderbirds.org or on facebook.com/Erie Thunderbirds.

Yes, the government's compelling interest most certainly can impose those burdens ("shift" here is questionable at best). It's right there in the language of the federal RFRA: There is no Supreme Court decision that I am aware which has invalidated this part of the law. Again, one of the principal issues with the Indiana law is the addition of the word "essential", which dramatically raises the burden of proof on the government even though strict scrutiny is already required in free exercise cases. Again, while I believe the law will have limited political impact the very fact that it was signed into law is completely outrageous and concern over it by DCI and its many fans is reasonable.

Considering you in the above post stated that we should simply wait to see if anyone makes use of this law in order to judge whether this law is a good or bad thing DOES say something about you. This nature of this law isn't a difference of opinion. This isn't homophobic vs not homophobic (which is a matter of opinion). This is about discussing whether this law allowing for discrimination is a good or bad thing. I'm not sure if one can have an opinion on that unless someone believes that discrimination is a good thing (and I'm not suggesting that you are pro-discrimination at all).

I wonder if drum corps itself could be used to douse the flames of such controversy? Some engineering students have developed a fire extinguisher that uses sound waves. If enough tubas played the right note...?

Understood but a lot of times "intent" gets thrown under the wheels of "what is actually written down".. To paraphrase what I heard on the news tonight, it' sad that a person can go into a store knowing they can be kicked out becaue someone doesn't like their orientation.

Are you honestly saying we should wait to see if anyone uses the (2 day old?) law to kick gay people or others out of a business to say we don't like it or think it's a bad idea? Nice thing to have hanging over your head..... And yeah PA falls into this category of having not listing LGBT as a group that has it's civil rights protected. So we're just as bad... And as I stated about how is treating people with same the respect a POLITICAL issue, to me that's a cop out... PS how is anyone forcing you to care about this, if you don't you don't...

Seriously, of all the drum corps, don't you think that Madison making a statement is a little obvious? I don't know the concentration of LGBT in the Madison Scouts, and I don't care. But, of all of the corps, I would suspect that they are the most reasonable to speak to the concern that this law would target the LGBT community. That's the point. Others want me to care. I DON'T CARE. And I have enough on my plate just promoting the activity without the extra baggage of having to make a political statement, too. Others want me to carry their torch. Sorry, but I like my drum corps loud, driving, emotional, and of the highest caliber. I don't care of the persuasion of the kid blowing the horn. And, frankly, I resent that the activity I've loved for 40 years is even involved in this, clearly, political battle just because some of the participants think it should be. We all have known of the percentage of LGBT community in drum corps and it has never been an issue. Not by me, and not by anyone I know. All of a sudden a group believes that the activity must make a stand when there is no evidence presented anywhere that the activity has been affected. He!!, even the Scouts said they've enjoyed a wonderful relationship with Indiana over many years. Why would they even consider that things would now be different? I know of no circumstances where one of their members, or members of any other corps, have experienced discrimination for being a widely-know significantly gay corps. What, in God's name, would the Scouts think would possibly change now? The true irony is that, to the extend that there is ANY discrimination against gay drum corps, they've place the target squarely on their own back. But, if you want me to take a stand, I will take it with the least-burdened. Period. That's the law. And please, don't hide behind "some" as a moniker. I've got thick skin and it's insulting. Call a spade a spade if it's worth it.

Supporting the corps that gave me so much, and continues to is being on a high horse? Then if that's the case, I'll keep riding.

Get over yourself. You wrote comments criticizing something that is an opinion and started a nasty war of words with everyone since not a single person remotely agreed with you.You didn't take anyone to task, you said "should be good enough for 11th place." It was simply a weak comment by someone that clearly doesn't care about their former corps.

Thank you for posting the link HornTeacher. This is a wonderful statement and so follows the class of the Madison Scouts. Bravo!

Well, I'm not quite sure what you mean by my giving it weight, and I would certainly welcome an equivalently helpful letter arguing the other side. As for its bias, I'd say that to agree with the Supreme Court on the Hobby Lobby decision is every bit as biased as to disagree with them. A hundred years hence, the Hobby Lobby decision might be seen to be just as flawed as most people now take the Dred Scott and Plessy vs. Ferguson decisions to have been. This particular law will probably be a forgotten relic far sooner, as more and more people become comfortable with gay marriage, whose opposition, which led to this law's passage, comes to be seen as being equivalent to opposition to miscegenation. Agreed entirely on the commendable civility of this discussion.

To bring up one point that might have been missed. People are referring to States that passed their own "equivalent" law in the 90's and are asking why it's such a big fuss now (even though some posters have pointed out the differences between the Indiana law and others). We live in the age of social media. News and opinions are transmitted in seconds and more people voice their opinion and just like the news, they as well are transmitted in seconds. People are more in tune and are much more likely to voice their opinion with Social Media. That is one key difference between then and now.

Pardon me? LOL

And if that does indeed happen, it will be because enough people will have spoken up about it instead of dismissing it as some hot button political topic that will eventually fade away in the next news cycle.

Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, whatever. There is nothing wrong with a boys or girls organization. Are you really obsessed with being so PC that you want to go after the Madison Scouts & the Cavaliers??? For the love of God, worry about more important things.

I do not expect DCI to relocate as a result of this legislation. I fully recognize that such action is practically unfeasible. I do hope that DCI makes it very clear to their contacts in Indianapolis that they have received significant feedback from their customer base about this legislation, that it puts DCI in a difficult decision, and it may have negative financial repercussions for both DCI and local Indianapolis businesses. Will it matter? Not on it's own. But it adds a voice to the chorus of those opposing this legislation. Speaking out matters. There is also the concern that this legislation increases the risk for performing members (and staff/spectators) to end up in hostile, potentially dangerous situations. Thats a concern I hope DCI is voicing to whomever they interact with at the local/state level in Indiana.

And lest anyone still believes that this law is really about religious freedom, it has become painfully clear what's going on and who specifically this law is targeting. This, from the lobbying group who championed the law: http://www.advanceamerica.com/blog/?p=1849 (Notice that they only mention Christians. Strange to think why other religions were excluded. It makes one wonder.)

I get what a few are saying from their point of view BUT what some dont seem get it is not " THEIR" cause. It's everyone's cause , or should be. It's a cause of anyone EVER who felt left out because of any reason, anyone who felt that they could not be themselves and would be singled out, anyone who did not feel equal because of some backwoods, maybe redneck ,archaic hide behind religion law who legally says a business can refuse service ( why not go back to separate bathrooms and water fountains ) a law that says one persons human rights are different from another's as long as i say it's in the name of my religion, a law that does not protect a 12 or 13 or 15 year old boy or girl trying to figure themselves out, bullied , parents that just dont get it. Sorry for the soap box also BUT I have seen way to much of this and to actually allow this in 2015 is disgusting IMO and does need to be addressed by our activity as it should and Im sure will be addressed by other activities through out the state. I by no means am not saying nor trying to convince others what they should believe in , time will take care of that in one way or another ( seen that so often ) but to think many issues including this one , maybe more so this one , has nothing to do with Drum Corps and it's many fans and participants is naive at best. Oh and yeah , lets care about our ticket price before we do if your son or daughter will be discriminated against on tour. Now maybe , just maybe it's just alot of smoke from those losing the battle in many states , 37 i believe with same sex marriage now but to even entertain the thought of a law to allow ANY discrimination of basic human rights, small or large, significant or not,even superficial at best should never be allowed ,period. Maybe some need it to hit closer to home to finally get it ( at it will happen, it often does ) let's hope it's not to late for that young individual. Man I want to see Ohio do this and it could and what WGI would do with the needed dollars that go into Dayton.

I regret not that I wrote that paragraph, but that I included it in the discussion. This is not about me, it's about DCI and Indiana's SB101. It does not matter what I think personally, it's about DCI's stand and, now that they've gone public, Madison's stand.. The law is about shifting burden's by government fiat. It's not a blanket authorization to discriminate, it's applied on each case individually (see the Chamber's reason for opposing it). There have not been any cases, that I'm aware of, against drum corps or its member corps or its members when they are participating in the activity.

I checked Kidsgrove's web page they will be at the Hurricanes show. So I get a chance to see them before Rochester.

Yes, you're right of course. Apology provided and text edited.

Prompted by your post, I just found and watched that show. Wow! It's great. So entertaining, and it feels rather like some of the Governaires best shows.

I think it would be quite interesting to see how far ones beliefs go IF someone was turned away at the door of a bar or restaurant at DCI and the packed place of drum corps people saw it and all walked out..hmmmmmmmm I cant wait to see the reaction to some rainbow flags in the Indy parade this year..lol

And that IMO is where any meaningful change will be initiated. When more high profile corporate entities get involved, whether by simply voicing their displeasure with the law, or threatening to boycott or whatever, they carry with them the kind of political/financial clout to actually get things done.*** I'm really eager to see what the NFL does here because of all these entities, the NFL has actually flung their weight around before when it comes to a political issue, threatening to boycott Arizona as a Super Bowl site. If they were to do that here, along with say, the Big Ten Conference, and the NCAA?? You can be sure that would send a very clear message and things would get done a lot quicker. *** As it stands now, DCI has probably done about all it can do. Perhaps if they align with BOA, WGI or other youth-based arts groups who have high profile events in that state as one large block of entities, they could wield greater clout. It would take a lot of doing, but...just a thought.

The term is an accurate description. It isn't pretentious. You may find it to be so because you don't agree with it and that is your right, but there is no need to put anyone else down in the process.

But as we know all Christian beliefs are the same (just like the rest of the religions). There have been places (CO comes to mind) where gays have been refused service and the business owner based it on their religious beliefs. This law the way I've been hearing (nice radio story this afternoon) can be used by a business owner to say "You're gay goes against my religious beliefs to do business with you.... get out" without fear of legal action. Wonder if anyone with these beliefs even joins a corps knowing that some of "them" might also be members. As for tying this into DCI, heard NFL and NBA are looking into what they can do to express their displeasure. Right now it's possible denial of Super Bowl and Al-Star games. But NFL also runs the annual combine in IN so who knows. So groups with more $$$ pull than DCI also very interested. Also heard the full NCAA response..... nice....

I don't see Madison or Cavies as practicing gender discrimination any more or less than other private clubs/organizations like Boy Scouts of America or Girl Scouts of America. And unless I am mistaken, a private club can make whatever membership prerequisites they choose based on any criteria that they choose.

There are analogies being made here that do not compare to the issue being discussed yet to counter argue some of the statements would end up derailing this thread to the point where it's going to be closed. I sincerely think some do not understand what discrimination is because they have never experienced it. I am thankful for the youth of today because more and more they just don't give two cents to the subject at hand.

Can't go wrong with black and red (not that I'm biased or anything )

Spartilticus

Macdonald's started a gimmick a few years back to have their teenage and twenty something staffers to ask customers.. " do you want fries with that ? " Starbucks CEO then came up with the dopey follow up idea to ask his teenage and twenty something staffers to ask their customers with their purchase order.. " Do you want a conversation on Race with that ? ". Fortunately, within 48 hours, somebody at Starbucks told their CEO there to abandon his ill conceived program as his gimmick became worse than serving overpriced coffee to people on the run with real lives that need to get to places quickly because, unlike the Starbucks out of touch CEO, they don't have time for navel gazing and/ or long and deep philosophical, societal discussions with anonymous retail store coffee servers and/ or hanger outters at coffee shops.

I've had at least one person tell me that if they hadn't known I was straight and married for over a decade (at the time...amost 2 1/2 now), she would;ve thlought I was gay just because of how I act sometimes. On the other hand, while I've certainly known men so incandescntly gay you could light a cigar jusy bystanding within 10 feet of them, I've also known ones who you;d have to ask about first. The unfortunate part is, people who ar bigoted will make a snap assumption about someone and God Himself can't change their opinion.

I do. Dated Noreen Carr from Summer St. Weymouth, and she, the Sancians manager, his wife, and I drove to the Dream in the early 70's. http://www.corpsreps.com/search.cfm

I would love to see your science to support that viewpoint which is one I've never heard before. As a physician who deals up close and personal on a daily basis with the ravages caused by tobacco you would be hard pressed to convince me of the merits of those claims. But I fear we are getting more than a bit off topic here.

Those Bridgemen and Bucs from the 1970's? The uniform of today is so much better. Time to move along with the times....we now have cell phones and no more rotary dials, electricity, fiber optics, kevlar, no more muskets....we have real weapons now. Get with the times!!!! Great uniform JJ!!!!!!

OK I come from the Senior/All Age corps world but my first thought was a couple walking into a store or a resturant holding hands. Will admit the thought comes from personal experience. Every year I go to a Christmas Eve party at a relatives house and years back was told that a lesbian couple had moved nearby. So one year I meet two yong ladies at the party and didn't think anything of it. Then I saw them looking at pictures and notice they were holding hands. And I was the guy doing ---> Still friends with them and knowing them as human beings helped change my perspective.....

OK dan...my wife and I go to a restaurant with two gay friends. How is it a political agenda wanting our friends to be able to eat with us and not be kicked out? Few decades back it could have been 2 black friends refused service because God told Moses not to mix the (Hebrew and Egyptian) races in Exodus. Know some people who still use that as a reason "not to mix the races" today. Or was that an "agenda" (whatever that means) too. Hey if a business doesn't want certain groups then they should post signs so everyone knows it. But they shouldn't cry if people take exception and take their business else where. To make this On Topic as I can: Does DCI have an agenda if they want all the participants not to be discriminated against?

I think where the controversy comes in is that diversity of opinion is one thing, diversity and opinions based on exclusion is quite another thing

G7 morphing into G10? hmmm... That would inject Mark Arnold into the mix. Not sure GH would find that advantageous.

I enjoyed their "Endless Standstill" theme show last season.

Fellini Madness

Bluecoats -- "Silt: An Underwater Fantasy" ("Dirt" in the program now becomes not a problem, but the goal)

Blue Devils - Buelleresque: A Tribute to the films of John Hughes Bluecoats: Pinball Wizard: No Tilting Cadets: That's What She Said: A tribute to the First Ladies Santa Clara: Aladdin (we gotta reuse all these props) Carolina Crown: nOTT Another Space Show: Take me to your brass trophy Cavaliers: Breaking Bad (I see the souvie trailer being replaced with an RV) Phantom Regiment: The Nutcracker (featuring 2 minutes of Tchaikovsky and 9 minutes of other less wonderful composers) Blue Knights: A Winterguard Fan's Dream Part Dos Blue Stars: Unpacking all this #### Boston Crusaders: 1984 or Babypowder the Musical Madison Scouts: Something old, Something old, Something Borrowed, Something Old Crossmen: Tribute to the Glassmen Part 2