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Reading the proposal, it disgusts me that DCI is so exclusionary. They only allow “musicians”. What about the poor kids who aren’t musicians but want to be in DCI. It’s 2020. Why so discriminatory? Let them bang on pots and pans. Why the hate, DCI? /s

I suspect the loss of volunteers is somewhat related to the fact that most, if not all, membership is national, vs local. When 90+% of the Corps has to fly in to go to camps, not too many parents are going to come along to volunteer for the food truck or uniform committee.

If you and DCI are NOT trying to hide anything, what good reason would you raise for not granting Poppycock his wish to read through the discussion and minutes of the committee which supposedly generated these proposals? You proport yourself as knowing who signed what and how. Poppycock usually seems to be reasonable, even insightful, often dramatic with his posts. Why not be transparent? What is being hidden or feared?

But if you look at the 990 forms, dues don't cover all costs. So individual members are actually a cost to the organization rather than an asset. (Strictly financially speaking, of course they're an "asset".) More members just mean higher costs.

That’s so ironic considering why drum corps was started in the first place.

Here is an aspect of things that often gets missed. While there is survey data attesting to the shorter fan retention average of modern, ever-changing DCI, no one talks about the volunteers working behind the scenes. If volunteer retention is as bad as fan retention, this whole thing could come crashing down.

I've actually heard that. I know University of Tampa hosted several cheer camps as well as some pro baseball camps in the spring. Obviously, the pro camps were a little less low-key but both had large-ish numbers of participants and staff. I can certainly see how increasing numbers would lead to some issues with housing. I would think DCI would have accounted for that in their walk through of the proposal. But then again, I used "Think" and 'DCI" in the same sentence.

Only one problem- no one is currently excluded. The premise is false. Learn a new instrument. Just like one of my kids did. If they pass it based on a completely false premise, ....well, it will be just like all the other proposals they’ve passed I guess. At this point, they’ve bastardized it so much, what difference does it make? It’s full on embarrassing bando.

Absolutely! Soloist who could play over a brass section and actually fill a stadium without a microphone and amplification. Those poor hobby players were a special breed.

I grew up in Casper. Mr. Jones started touring to give kids in Casper the opportunity to travel who would have probably never had that experience. It is ironic.

Right, more kids that CAN afford it. Money, more and more money. Cheap experience? I couldn’t have afforded it, let alone march for 6 seasons. I have heard that argument before, and DONT BUY IT. I am sure there are performers who can’t afford it. That is by far the minority. By. Far. I guess we can agree to disagree. But I watched the change. I was there in the trenches. Where I worked there wasn’t any mercy for kids who couldn’t afford it. Kids who 20 years ago could have done it. That’s a fact, chum. Drum Corps is an activity for the top 10%. I have heard that with my own ears come out of the face of a prominent person, very prominent in DCI’s leadership. That’s what drum corps is now. FACT. By design. I also heard the same person say “That’s what SoundSport is for, for kid who can’t afford the World Class experience.” Drum Corps used to be exclusive to those who had the grit to do it. Now, to those who can afford it. Sorry, that’s the way it is, again, by design.

I get the aspiration to make the benefits available to as many young people as possible. I don't doubt the sincerity of the aim. But way to maximize the benefits isn't to eliminate the characteristics that distinguish the one thing from all other things. It's to make many different things. Summer string camps. Chamber orchestras. Youth symphonies. Jazz combos. Chorale. Fiddlin' competitions. Bluegrass camps. Piano competitions. Drum and bugle corps. I've said it before: When you put all the ingredients in the kitchen into a single pot, every item on the menu tastes the same. The way to expand the "life-enriching benefits" to more young people is to put more items on the menu, not use a bigger pot.

That’s what they said about trombones.

Did they actually choose which three instruments they were opposed to?

I think it would be a gesture of good faith to make the minutes available to the fan base.

Interested in seeing the minutes of these meetings and those listed as subject matter experts. Something tells me this has more to do with livelihoods and less about participants. Increase revenues can be a great motivator.

If you try to grease something so it can slip through a soft opening, don't be surprised if it leaks in the process.

LOL. It didn't. But basically this is "what had happened was...." In every Jesuit Catholic School, there is a supposed to be a crucifix above every door. So we're sitting is Sister Mary Rebecca's class having our weekly Satan discussion when a new kid walks in and slams the door. The crucifix falls off the wall and hits the floor. Jesus' head breaks off...rolls across the floor and hits Sister Mary Rebecca in the foot. For whatever reason, in that moment, any semblance of self control I had was lost and I started laughing. Sister Mary Rebecca reaches down to her nun "Bat Utility Belt" and busts out a vial of holy water and proceeds to douse me with it, screaming "Don't laugh...that's what Satan wants you to do!" True story

it didn't work apparently.😂

Why wait? They just changed the minimum corps sizes with no regard to the rule change process. By that same behavior, they could change the max any time they want.

again, fan opinion stopped none of the previously mentioned changes, even with very vocal protests

The “inclusion” rap is laughable. The sheer cost makes the experience unreachable for way too many. Inclusion? Look for ways to reach more kids who can’t afford $5,000 for a summer. Just the economics of it makes Drum Corps exclusionary by class.

Woodwind player (clarinet and sax) here — completely agree. I don't feel like I'm lacking in "life-enriching" musical summer opportunities because DCI is made up of drum corps instead of marching bands, even though I'd be eligible to march for a year if the proposal passed. I wouldn't want a snare drummer to join my woodwind quintet; there's no reason I should be playing a woodwind instrument in a brass and percussion ensemble. There is a huge range of timbral possibilities available to DCI arrangers right now with the brass, percussion, and electronics that are already allowed, and I don't see any reason to look outside of that for new sounds to add to the ensemble right now (even BD's violinist this past year was too much for me, not on principle of having a string player but based on the percentage of the show that featured the electric violin sound).

I'm going to be that guy: First lines of Canterbury Tales (which is in Middle English): Whan that Aprill, with his shoures soote The droghte of March hath perced to the roote And bathed every veyne in swich licour, First lines of Beowulf (which is in Old English): Hwæt! Wé Gárdena in géardagum þéodcyninga þrym gefrúnon· hú ðá æþelingas ellen fremedon.

What Jeff, Fred, and others have said... we are mere bystanders here. "Mongo only pawn in game of life." 😁 Whatever gets approved... so be it. None of us here can stop it. So then each of us will have to make a decision: stay or go. Whatever. The Earth will continue to spin on its axis.

They were trying to placate the guys who were still upset about the addition of the rotor 20 years earlier. They didn't feel it necessary to say "no woodwinds" because everyone attached to the activity at that point understood what a ridiculous idea it would be to fundamentally change the sound of the product. Cuz, y'know, marching bands already existed, so the option was already there.

Ironic to think that DCI went on the record in 1975 permanently opposing the adoption of three valve bugles! (Drum Corps News inadvertently left out the word “valved” in its article):

Right now, just filling in the names/signatures of qualifying authors and sponsors for each proposal would be a gesture of good faith, IMO.

I agree with you. What is right, what is proper, and what is legal aren't always the same. Has not Washington shown that all?

You did not answer my question. "...If you and DCI are NOT trying to hide anything, what good reason would you raise for not granting Poppycock his wish to read through the discussion and minutes of the committee which supposedly generated these proposals? You proport yourself as knowing who signed what and how. Poppycock usually seems to be reasonable, even insightful, often dramatic with his posts. Why not be transparent?..."

and to make the conversations publicly available will prove that.

Remembering when Adolph DeGrauwe of Cavies and David Glasgow of Bloo did that with past proposals (electronix, e.g.) and eventually had to buckle under as judges rewarded the proposed changes scorewise.

Upon further review and I can't even remember what I originally posted, I'm going with quality. People largely attend shows for the headliners.

Yea uses a lot of invisible ink.

Shhhh don’t give anyone ideas... after all more members means more dues income. As for expenses.... someone else’s worry🤔 also had a college roommate who became a Brother (in charge of publications in Altoona/Johnstown diocese). Next roomie became a prison guard so who knows what effect I had on them 🙄

Or Canterbury Tales, Sir Gawain and The Green Knight, etc. I think we did them all in Brit-Lit at one point. But we also had to learn Latin (and it wasn't our elective language,) which was taught by one of the Jesuit Sisters of Mercy (or Sisters of No Mercy in my case.) I had holy water thrown on me once....long story.

Where I am at the problem is letting any “outsiders” use facilities that the taxpayers maintain. And corps have the added problem of predators that has come out and the “noise” as schools and practice fields are in residential area. All it takes is one person raising hell at a school board or borough meeting and the board members figure it’s not worth the trouble to say yes. After all they might lose votes next election

All future rule changes should be put into Middle English. I don't think it's being taught anymore in the US. That would probably avoid most leaks simply because people would fall asleep 4 sentences into the proposal.

So did they think that they were going to just covertly slip this one by us? I know they think we’re stupid and inferior but most of us have passable reading skills. Doh! 🙄

Trying to think which major college band I saw with huge band. What I remember was three blocks moving around and no individual moves. Lol saw more drill with some of the alumni corps...

I clearly don’t want to see woodwinds incorporated any more than what is already available. That would be, used as an addition to the pit. My thinking is, any Proposal for more extensive use of woodwinds is, in reality, being driven by instrument manufacturers and suppliers. We in the Peanut Gallery can only watch/not watch were this goes.

Our mutual friend who is 18 has vehemently spoken out against this. So try ok boomer on him. #fail

200 members and I keep hearing my college MB director/drill designer who kept band at 150 max. “Too many people gets in the way of my drill”. And we didn’t even have props to get in the way of the drill

Completely agree that if WW allowed they will raise membership to around 200. Which means purchasing a set of 'marching woodwinds' (is that even a thing?) ($), at least 1 more bus ($), more mouths for the food truck to feed ($), WW Caption head & techs ($). For the relatively few Corps that have the fiscal ability to cover these costs, WW may not be a financial burden. For others, who have to find a way to 'keep up with the Joneses' it is just another straw on the camels back. Reading the entire proposal, it states (& I quote) "Fiscal Impact...DCI and the corps will be able to leverage additional revenue opportunities through marketing to a new target audience of performers, families, and friends. Additional expenses will be minimal for DCI and individual expenses for individual corps will depend upon instrumentation decisions." To me, this does not look like a well thought out 'Fiscal Impact" - It seems to say 'WW won't cost much, let the individual Corps work it out, but we may get more parents of WW players in the stands'. This is way less thought out than the G7 or other cockamamy proposals of the past. And DCI made this person Chairman of the BOD?

there are many in DCI who would cheer if legacy fans went away

agreed. i have seen people of all age groups, including current corps members speaking out against woodwinds

oh, are you suggesting that DCI might not find his opinions infallible?

I can’t believe I marched with the person who proposed woodwinds.

You’re not the only person entitled to an opinion and just because you say so doesn’t make it so.

Go to Surf, 7th Regiment, or Spartans and get some experience under his feet. I hope he one day gets to be a part of the organization that I was years ago.