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Yeah, saying that DCI knew the end was coming and "gave" Cadets the 5th place finish was conspiracy theory, clueless, and just plain stupid. The Cadets came in 5th because they were better than everyone beneath them, including this woman's beloved Regiment. They deserved their placement, and I say this as a Boston supporter.

I wish there was an intelligent, mature, informed podcast that discussed the art form and the business of drum corps, one where the folks who actually know what's what would be willing to go on and discuss the activity and provide insight and clarity to listeners. Something very different from DCAF, in other words.

Somethings really are, unfortunately, as simple as "boy grows up watching dad abuse mom, grows up and abuses his partner." Drum corps is no different. It takes work to find a different path than the one you were brought up in. Any time I have been involved in marching education I have been keenly aware and focused on not letting how I was originally taught be how I put things forward. Those old behavior pathways are always there, worn into the brain, and available to travel if I am not cautious and mindful.

Jeff, I couldn't sleep after I realized there was yet another Red Flag I was aware of that you wouldn't have been aware of for very good reasons. I've kept it to myself for 30 years and have only discussed it a couple of days ago with someone else. Since this thread involves abuse- That contact person within the corps that we both know that I mentioned? Well, someone took that individual where there were no witnesses during a rehearsal and struck them. Who, Mom and I don't know, we just know the individual was struck and was afraid to say who it was. 30 years is a long time, but I'm thinking that was when Mom hit me with the question as to what in Hades was happening there. Mom and I don't know who it was. And whomever it was should be thankful I don't know. *sigh* There was also the joint Bingo with the Fire Department where it was decided by the Management that it wasn't worth it. A loss of easy and steady income at the time. There's another Red Flag I remember. A lot of times, I know more about many things that I let on, Jeff. I know to many I might come across as a total rube and a goof, but I figure I'm better off underestimated. I know we agree on one thing, Jeff, and I believe everyone on this thread agrees: We want the experience to be far, far better for young people who want to be challenged hard in this activity. It's an intense crucible where one finds out a lot about themselves. Without the discipline I learned and kept with me, I prolly would have given up in the hospital two Augusts ago. But I know I was determined and disciplined enough to fight hard from my corps experience. We need transparency and professionalism badly. People need to stop running away from these things and try and bury it. Yeah, it's horribly embarrassing. Being called out and called a "Worthless sack of (insert colorful Noun)" like I was over the PA system at the Syracuse State Fair Grounds Stadium when I was 16 in the middle of a rehearsal was pretty embarrassing, and it still gets whole lots of great ho-ho-hos and chuckles when its brought up. I just smile and chuckle along, so funny. I overcame it and then some. I was determined to make it in the activity. Some folks might not have overcame that. The activity needs to learn from this stuff and do better.

Aren’t there other forums where you can twist yourself into a pretzel to make a lame “ oooooohhh scary George Soros” post? DCP ain’t it

For high school, we had to have all white shoes for summer parade (white shorts, the years orange band T shirt, and specific calf high socks that we bought from the school. Fall uniform was black shoes of our own, must be all black with high black socks. Often the spray paint was pulled out to ensure "all one color" much to the annoyance of parents on a budget trying to balance kids' fashion desires with a need for marching band shoes. [waves] I became proficient in using tape well enough and picking the most bland shoes I could. So my shoe game was terribly dull until college. When I promptly got the loudest most colorful running shoes I could. My senior year though we had new uniforms with white pants and white shoes that were uniform marching shoes, so that at least alleviated the shoe budget for some families

If the judges had any inkling what was coming in the fall, they would have put Cadets 7th (or possibly even 8th).

I'm saying this only half tongue in cheek, but most of those types of folks are too busy actually running drum corps... Mike

Jim once laughed at what a DI was saying to another Marine and he asked if something was funny. Jim said “Funny as hell, sir!” He ended up doing push-ups. He has a few funny stories from the Marine Corps. He worked in avionics and one day a REO griped the deceptive electronic countermeasures unit and said it didn’t work in the O.F.F. Position. 🤦‍♀️

I couldn't help laughing the first time a DI got in my face and screamed. Once. Never happened again when 3 more of them seemed to surround me like f'ing dementors in the blink of an eye. I think it was because I grew up with generations of military in my family and they all told me that drill instructors/sergeants were just playing a role. Nobody outside of Dickens novels is that much of a caricature and that was my reaction the first time. But yeah, when 4 of them were surrounding me, "accidentally" bumping into me and pushing me around, I got over the laughing thing pronto. And I did end up having 1 DI out of 5 who was indeed a caricature. Just a nasty little guy who liked having power over others. The other DI's did their best to protect us from him in their own subtle ways. Back to high school marching band inspection back in the day, if anybody forgot black socks before parade inspection, our band director spray painted our ankles and feet black. Different times. And @happycomposer, I'm hoping you'll keep us updated about your findings. I've always been curious about this as well but really didn't even know where to begin.

yeah this wasn't the kind of topic our usual snarkfest was made for. we like to bust ###, but losing an icon...yeah, we aren't bashing that

I'll preface this by saying I agree with the spirit of what this person posted in general. But, as somebody who was there, they do not know what they speak of with the Cadets regarding Hop. Of course the abuse was there before him, because lets face facts: the abuse was, and is, everywhere in the activity. No corps is immune from it. The cycle didn't start with Hop, but he codified it there. He was dug in like a tick. His grip, an ironclad stranglehold. He was in charge for 34 years, more than one third of the corps' existence. He enabled the abuse there for those years and directly took part in it. Once he took over anybody who marched there can tell you: Hop's culture was the corps culture. Outside the abuse, that culture generally was "work yourself to absolute death if you have to in order to succeed." The work was literally all that mattered. Not people, not physical health, not mental health, not nutrition, not safety - work, even at the expense of all of these things. That was the lesson he wanted us all to get. With that culture, they won 6 out of 11 years with incredible performances. We all bought into that culture. We were flat out treated like dog sh** - and we lived for that experience. Looking back on it I see the absolute insanity. I would never let anybody treat me like that here in my adult life now. But I let them do it back then. Because they were the champions when I showed up for my first audition and I was not. I was a kid. I knew nothing. They're the adults. They must know. This is how you succeed. I must be wrong. I'll just take it. Removing Hop drastically altered the organization and the culture. Immediately. The members from 2018 - 2023 were genuinely supported and taken care of to a degree we never were. It was a valiant effort. It was imperfect. But it was far better. Abuse is everywhere in the activity. Hop made the corps an even easier place for abusers and perpetrators to thrive. I hold him directly accountable for that.

There's no reason for his comment at the moment.

There's a lot of pain when your corps folds. I know this personally. But my anger is directed at those individuals who committed the malfeasance that killed it. And, the enabling that went on. My Mom asked me why it was all happening, and I told her, "People were willing to go along and ignore all of the red flags because the corps was gunning for a championship and didn't care about the long-term future of the organization." On that tangent, What Keith discussed and what Brian Tuma discussed on another thread as well as SG recently: I've given a lot of thought about this. It's definitely the culture that exists and has existed. The activity is very result and win driven. Why are some of these people on board? They're perceived to get things done and that they're effective staff members, and there's an attitude with some people that to make an Omelet, well, a few eggs are broken, and well, those broken eggs aren't really corps material. There's also a very in house Good ole Boys' network in place. "Oh, X has a problem, well we can keep X under control here and they're great staff people, we'll give them another chance with our corps. We can keep an eye on them." Why? they figure they can win with this individual on staff or as a performer, just keep a lid on it. People who turtle up about the dark secrets or shun those who speak up for fear it'll wreck their corps are playing into the hands of the abusers and enabling them. It's one of the tools of their trade. "Don't say anything or you'll be blamed when the corps gets sued and goes under." To me, that's evil incarnate. One can't knuckle under to that mindset. Lord, I've got my dander up. And everything in the second paragraph has happened somewhere. Some of it, I've seen personally. You want to turn your back from it, shame on you. This (insert colorful noun here) has to stop.

I love Madison, and wish them a return to glory soon. And there are two things I will never understand; the tattoo obsession and the number of instructors required in modern Drum Corps for a single section.

There was a friend at the Bucs in the early 80's who forgot his pants. They fashioned a pair of pants out of Hefty bags and electrical taped it to him. Luckily they had those long blue coats at the time down to just above the ankles, and no one noticed during the performance.

I can handle hot living down here in Floriduh but I am going north for the summer this year. Three summers of swamp hot so it’s time for a little break.

Governaires 1927

To be honest, the REAL low bass sound (not enhanced) has been missing ever since the move to Bb. I don't know if it's a byproduct of the move or arrangers simply don't arrange in a way that produces the low bass sound.

Very excited for the upcoming season. Excited to see what the staff changes will bring to the table.

Y'all. Respectfully... Choosing show material based on 20th century artists who sold their works to/sympathized with/entertained Nazis is not anywhere near the same as enabling and facilitating abuse in drum corps. (Although, to be fair, there are countless other artists and creatives out there that aren't tied to violence, abuse, and atrocity. Would it be a good idea to use Michael Jackson's music at this point, for example? I wouldn't!) It's possibly in the same ballpark as Polanski and Allen in film... but there's no need to ambiguate the topic here. Countless untold members were physically, verbally and sexually abused for years; it was covered up and silenced; and blaming a single person vastly oversimplifies the breadth of this issue. Activity leadership and the community at large have never had a transparent, honest and informed dialogue about that, which risks the safety of current marchers and staff. Rand, an expert, who has listened to countless survivor reports by now suggests centering survivor perspectives. Safe Sport International suggests centering survivor perspectives. Both say that the remedy, which survivors are due, includes minimally linking them to mental health support services, or gasp actually enabling said services. I suggested the idea to VMAPA and it was immediately dismissed without discussion. DCI and drum corps seem to refuse to do anything resembling that. Still. To the detriment of current marchers and staff. It's unconscionable at this point to not even host discussions with survivors, given how long this legacy has lasted.

I said that wrong as I often do. He made the reservation yesterday for July. 😂

I've heard some pretty crazy stories out of the Cavies camp. My absolute "favorite" involving a group activity and crackers... But I'm really hoping that was just a running joke among the corps.

This place is overrun with negativity. Literally every thread, someone hijacks with negativity. In this thread about the cavaliers - some random person suggests that they "have a feeling" the corps is next to ceae operations, with no information. Just negativity for negativities sake. For the good of the activity, shut this place down until the summer when there is actual discussion here.

The separation of the deeply flawed artist from their art is a tough call. I think Woody Allen and Polanski are despicable but I have to admit that I still watch their movies. And i didn’t flinch when Crown played Liebestod last year. https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20130509-is-wagners-nazi-stigma-fair

With as many corps that have folded over the past 45 years, My guess is that it's possible that the majority of former performers on DCP are in this situation.

Things were more about pathing rather than well-defined subsets, which is why drill transitions are so much cleaner now.

This is the raw sentiment that most closely resembles my own. I don't wish the end of the honorable portion of any legacy, but when you've experienced firsthand, and been told numerous accounts of, a legacy of abuse that has never been compassionately or honorably addressed by leadership anywhere, I believe such sentiments are warranted. If anyone wants to hear Rand's full commentary, which I cut down in my previous comment, they can go listen for themselves at DCAF. It includes their well wishes to the Cadets alum and community in addition to what I included. So does the rest of the commentary by DCAF. Otherwise, I encourage those who clearly wish to do otherwise in my thread, to remain survivor/victim centric. I won't be responding to known trolls, enablers, or apologists here. Rand offers real solutions that I'd never dreamed of proposing on DCP because the voices of apologists, enablers, and flying monkeys always get honest discussions shut down. I reposted Rand's commentary here in hopes of giving it greater visibility. Same with the commentary I quoted above. Even if OP has changed how they feel, which is understandable, the sentiments in this commentary are fair and shared by others.

You know, alot of this reminds me of that famous Hollywood director who raped a 13 year old girl, WAS charged and found guilty, and fled to Europe before he was due to "turn himself in". There were tons of Hollywood actors and other elites who were saying he should be excused because he was an "artistic genius". The ME T00 movement ended that. Just recalled his name...Roman Polanski.

Reviving this thread to post a segment of Rand (MAASIN founder)'s statement regarding the end of the Cadets. Thank you DCAF for giving them a platform to say the right thing to a wider audience. Emphases, bold, italics, are mine: "You don't also get to claim simultaneously all the history and victory of the Cadets while washing your hands clean of the abuse that happened. The announcement statement from the Cadets regarding the corps folding essentially says that the corps folded because of the recent lawsuit from an alum who was sexually assaulted in the 80s. Blaming the recent lawsuit as the sole reason the organization folded, knowing the kind of environment survivors in marching arts deals with is deliberately opening up that person to further abuse. Further abuse because I was already seeing a bunch of disgusting, vitriolic comments directed at them before the corps folded, I can only imagine what those people are saying now. This sets us back. Many of us, obviously myself included, have diligently worked to make drum corps a safer place. We should be past the fear that reporting will make people think that you just want to see the organization fold, and you just want to see drum corps burn, and you'll be blamed for the uncaring actions of boards and admin. This statement from the Cadets remastered that fear in 4k for hundreds if not thousands of people. I'm also seeing a lot of people blame George Hopkins. I understand where they're coming from and obviously you all know I'm not going to be George Hopkins defender, but this isn't solely his fault either. In my opinion, looking at George as a the sole downfall of the Cadets is likely how the board landed in this situation. Removing George from the organization didn't solve the issues inherent to the organization because George was part of the problem, not the whole problem itself. The actual problem is that the Cadets organization became an environment that enabled abuse for many people, not just George. Obviously I've never been involved in the Cadets organization, so please take this with a grain of salt, but if any iteration of the Cadets truly cared about survivors as much as optics or finances, they would've handled this differently starting in 2018. Disclosing being a survivor of sexual violence is difficult. People have a lot of reasons for choosing to step forward or not to step forward. But for every survivor that stepped forward, there are probably at least as many that chose not to. Even more difficult is choosing to initiate a lawsuit over it. No one has a good time in a lawsuit and the courts are not kind to survivors. Choosing to sue or engaging with law enforcement often just retraumatizes people. From my experience as a sexual assault counselor, and also being on the MAASIN support team, lawsuits are usually a last resort. When someone gets to a lawsuit, it's likely that the organization failed in a lot of steps in making amends first. Imagine in 2018 if people in our community, but especially in the Cadets board and admin, put as much effort into support survivors as they did in trying to distance themselves from George. Imagine the idea if we took a corps fundraiser seriously and we crowdfunded for counseling for survivors. Imagine if organizations facilitated gathering feedback from alum and survivors on what meaningful change in the organization looks like. Teasing out what's tradition and what's trauma can be difficult for some people but it's a worth endeavor to invest time into. I can't predict the future but if survivors are adequately supported, they are probably less likely to resort to suing to get their needs met. The lawsuit cannot be the only reason the organization folded. There's always more than what's the statement and we know that the economic conditions that we're living in present a huge challenge to drum corps across the board. The person at fault for an organization folding is never the survivor. This is a natural consequence of a board and admin that chose pride and profits over the people the organization is built on. ... Just remember, it was not the survivor who did this."

I just have to tell you what a huge fan I am of your '85 show. I marched Jr. Scouts in '85 and you guys were a complete bag of crap in June. But, by God, at finals you were just spectacular. To this day, that show is not only one of my favorite Regiment shows, it's one of my all time favorite shows, and THE show I consider to be the most underrated. You should be so proud of that show and what you all accomplished over that summer. It was so incredibly demanding and just marvelous. SUTA (even though I have no F'ing idea what that means)!

1982 is my favorite. It's the first show I ever saw, and was a real game changer with Zingali's drill and that horn line. The beginning of what would become decades of dominance in the activity. 1982 really put the rest iof the drum cops world on notice. I marched Cadets starting in 1984, so I never watched that show live. But I suspect 1984 could be one of the best drum corps shows ever. I am devastated that I will never again get chills when I see the maroon and gold take the field.

1997 is perhaps my favorite. I still remember being gobsmacked first time I saw it. The rest of DCI was standing still in comparison. OTOH Cadets shows I didn't like are few and far between.

The Cadets in 1990 were super clean. Very mature show. Subtle, musical, artistic, and the sheer definition of professional playing and marching. That was a tough competitive year. I believe 6 corps all won regionals that season. Top 7 or 8 shows were all fantastic. Cavaliers and Star of Indiana were nothing short of amazing and championship caliber. Not to mention Blue Devils fabulous Tommy show. Phantom and SCV were also outstanding. It took until about a week and a half before finals that it looked like The Cadets might be the lead dog heading into Allentown and then Finals. Great season and one that I will always remember, and on top of it all was that brilliant Cadets show.

Beats the “throw dirt on it” from the old days, that’s for sure.

yes. But the organization, as it currently exists, only seems to work best for people who look like you and I.

I just want to be Kylo because of the lightsaber. I’m pure Han Solo as a person. Never tell me the odds, and I landed the princess! I do have to ask…. How’d you figure out Reamy? Only a select few from my high school days have ever called me that. oh… and I had an issue with unwanted advances in my first year marching. I’ve not talked about it because luckily in 1989 I brought it up to a staff member and it was addressed and resolved. To both of our credits we worked it out and are friends today.

That’s what I’m getting at. Low hanging fruit is a start, but it won’t actually bring significant change. you want change? You really gotta find a way to hit the bank account hard. Once the law is involved, and lawyers show up, and costs are now significant enough to send a group plummeting into debt, and bring the others down as well, things will change. It requires significant time and money to take on the entire org, but that’s what needs to be done to bring change.

Even my son has two. All the iterations of Southwind are gone and it seems to be forever. We know what happened to Cap Sound.. big fish eats little fish to survive.

Every corps I ever marched with folded decades ago.

In 1976 no one knew this but....one of our sopranos was being abused by his uncle. His uncle was also on staff of our corps (although I don't know why because I, at 16, did way more than he ever did). The guy was also a cop. The kid grew up to own a successful contracting company and then committed suicide. The story was put out there in the newspaper before he died. It's sad that this happened back then and no one did nothing! I won't tell you what my mother endured.