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Is that all you got? Seriously? You speak as if you expect DCI to kick a couple dozen non-member corps to the curb, and then take away some member corps' pay to give certain self-proclaimed "draw" corps more....all because of this baseless, unquantifiable, unsubstantiated claim? I've been listening to all this poppycock about how "the draw" is somehow supposed to be determined by how many people are in the stands at any given time during an event that runs several hours (or several days). Now, you've taken it to a new level by claiming that more people are in the lot than in the stands. 1. For starters, you don't know how many people were "in the lot" at any given time. You probably don't even have counts of how many people were in the stands for concident corps performances, either. How do we know your claim is true to begin with? (How do you know?) 2. You are always touting all this "data" on which you base your plans for transforming DCI. Certainly, you ought to have data on number of butts in seats for each corps. If we are to divvy the cash based on that measure, we'll need that data. 3. Have you surveyed fans that don't stay in their seats for every performance, to find out why they don't? Or do you just assume that they are all "in the lot"? We've been over this before....but I'll review again. There are plenty of reasons why people won't/can't sit still on a stadium seat for the three or more hours an event takes. Some have mobility challenges, or just don't want to fight the crowds going in and out more than once. Others physically can't stay seated for that long, and would rather leave and return. Some people arrive late due to traffic or work, and leave early for similar considerations. Still others are there to root for just one corps, usually because of alumni or family ties, but show design/performance quality might make someone a loyal fan too. It doesn't surprise me that different corps performances in that event, therefore, take place with different numbers of seats occupied. However: 1. That doesn't prove which corps "draw" people to the event in the first place. 2. That doesn't prove whether people are drawn to the event by individual corps, or to see a contest among them. 3. That yields no discrete data on why people watch certain corps. Evidently, some people are in the stands when City Sound performs. Why aren't they in the lot watching Blue Devils? And most importantly, none of this presents a logical reason why we should pay certain corps more than they are already getting.

Scouts - any number of years - 80, 81, 88 stand out for me - But those Yokohama kids...yikes, that's fun -

I fixed it.

very eerie... each year, they are called the Blue Devils.

The music from Skyrim is amazing. One could very easily build a show around that material, or several. To those of you that think electronic music is just a bunch of "untz untz", you might want to dig deeper, electronic music is far beyond repetitive dance rhythms these days. There is a lot of harmonic and melodically interesting stuff out there if one cares to dig a bit.

Boring

We hope everyone had a wonderful holiday season filled with laughter, music and the love of friends and family. It was a great season for the Buccaneers. A very successful Membership Day open house was followed by two rehearsal camps in which great work was done by the brass and percussion on the closer, 1812 Overture. We're excited to continue the good work on that great chart. Our collective creative Santa Claus - Lortz, Trujillo, Tsalikis - continued their fantastic work and left a great opener in our stockings - and we can't wait to dive into it! We'll get to do just that with our first winter camp of 2012, for brass and percussion. Saturday, January 7 9:00 a.m. to 6 p.m. Sunday, January 8 9:00 a.m. to 4:15 p.m. Twin Valley High School Elverson, PA Join us! We're looking for members with the drive and commitment to have a phenomenal experience and make the friends of a lifetime in the process. For more information, visit www.readingbuccaneers.org or email membership.manager@readingbuccaneers.org. You can also visit the 2012 Reading Buccaneers Interest Group on Facebook to join in on the chatter. See you on Saturday!

Our first 2 camps of the 2012 season have been a great success. We still have a few openings in the hornline and cymbal line. The hornline has played through 6 minutes of our show and the first 2 minutes of our production New World Order are complete. We'll be learning more of our show later this month. This will be a 2 day, sleepover rehearsal. We'll be rehearsing at the Florida State Fairgrounds once again. Saturday, January 21 - 9am-9pm *Brass and Percussion only Sunday, January 22 - 9am-4pm *Full corps Like always, our rehearsals are open to the public! Enter from the security entrance off of Orient Road, just let them know you're there for Tampa Bay Thunder. For more information, visit www.TampaBayThunder.org

Average Finals Score... Past 10 Years (2002-2011) 97.828 Blue Devils 97.435 Cavaliers 96.410 The Cadets 94.548 Phantom Regiment 93.523 Santa Clara Vanguard Past 20 Years (1992-2011) 97.514 Blue Devils 96.898 The Cadets 96.783 Cavaliers 93.961 Phantom Regiment 93.859 Santa Clara Vanguard No point. Just facts. Make of it what you will.

Our horn line will be fine with the staff we have listed. Michael, despite all of the negative attention that he receives, did provide usefull instruction to some of our members during his time on tour and we appreciate the time that he spent on tour with us.

Looking forward to seeing them again next summer. I'm a bit concerned though: Can you field a hornline without Howdy's "expertise"?

I really miss all the real precision from back in the 70's. You don't see that anymore. Now it's all scatter drill and a bunch of dance. ( not that there is anything wrong with that it's just different)

Me too. Cadets 2003. There was a time when I didn't think so. Now the more I listen/watch Cadets 2003, the more convinced I am it's the definitive version. HH

There should have been a third option - "Yes."

Dunno. I couldn't do what they do.

Because of the vague wording contained in the Box 5 ad (2011 DCA year book), before placing my order for the 2011 DCA finals DVD set, I specifically asked if both the multi-camera and high-camera options would be available. The Box 5 representative assured me that the format would be the same as 2010 DCA DVDs. After receiving the 2011 DVD set and discovering that the High-Camera option was not included, I contacted Box 5 Media Support and requested that in exchange, send me a DVD set with both views, as promised or as a minimum, High-camera only. Box 5 media response: "There are not any different camera angles available for the DCA's. We apologize for the confusion. Kind Regards, Box5 Media" This is an unsatisfactory response. If Box 5 can't deliver what they promised, they should refund my money. I intend to bring this to the attention of DCA. It is also interesting to note, the price of the 2011 DVD Finals set (multi-camera only) was the same as (multi-camera and high-camera options). Short Changed Again !

Sorry folks. I'm not following where this thread is going. What minus? I don't see one. Who cares anyway? One is entitled to one's opinion as long as it doesn't harm anyone, but I saw no negatives on this thread. Am I missing something? Kevin

I'd add that the first minute and change of 1991 are as well. The first time I saw Devs in 95, and they went into the riff from the 91 opener, I was crazy excited to hear that again (with a much improved visual design and percussion book over the 91 original): I know it was just a short phrase, but it made me crave a 91 re-do! That being said, I absolutely LOVE the arrangements in 1993, and for whatever reason I adore 'Open Wide/Great Divide' as well as their arrangement/brass performance of 'Strawberry Soup.' I kinda think perfection would be Blue Devils show of 91's opener and closer, with 93's middle. But I realize that would be FAR to much awesomeness for us mere mortals to handle

Every Corps have people that dislike them for one reason or another. The world keeps spinning. 165 Days til Drum Corps Season Starts!

This is a no brainer- Scouts hands down.

How's that? I agree for my own reasons. I totally respect BD performers and what they've accomplished. I just don't care for many design elements in their shows.

I don't hate BD. I happen to dislike most of their shows, and often I get frustrated with their success (especially since I dislike the shows). What more is there to say?

I'm rarely on here anymore, but I was surprised to find yet another 77 Bridgemen topic. It's almost reminiscent of the Black Sox Scandal of 1919, except for a few small details. (sarcasm off) Once more, hopefully for the last time, I would like to shed some light on the 77 Bridgemen, when I was 17 years old. We had a very interesting mix of home-grown members, and out-of-towners, like me. It all came together rather well, especially when Jim Brady, our extraordinary soloist was entered into the mix. It was an incredible ride. Best year of drum corps ever for me! Why? We survived, and got through a horrible experience. There is far more to learn about life, and the inhabitants of this planet than merely competition. The Bridgemen experience in 1977 taught me a GREAT DEAL ABOUT LIFE! Did we know what was going on in regard to "rules infractions"? Not until DCI MIDWEST in Whitewater, Wisconsin, when we were lined up, and asked to produce personal identification. The two members that had marched as 21-year-olds, didn't march again. They were replaced. Did our staff/management misinterpret the rules, and drop the ball? Apparently so, but most of us were just innocent teenagers doing our best to compete on the national level with our peers. Not sure how or why this specific misinterpretation of DCI rules occurred, but let it be known that most of the corps was not aware of this, although some individuals would have you believe that the entire corps conspired to have two of our members violate the rules of DCI in 1977. This was just not the case, and I suppose that those people who believe this to be true also believe that the Red Sox have won 27 World Championships, and not the Yankees. :) We were informed that we were DISQUALIFIED after traveling from Fort Collins, CO., to Boulder, CO., the day before prelims. It was very devastating, and our spirits were very low. We learned that we had been reinstated (thanks to a court injunction) when we arrived at prelims, 30 minutes before our performance. Of course, as some have mentioned, we gave some very intense performances at prelims, and at finals. We overcame the jeers, and turned them into cheers, at some point during each show. That was incredibly gratifying, and exhilarating! In 77, we had a strong horn line, a drum line and guard that were coming on, decent marching, and a rather weak visual program. But the overall package was pretty strong, and packed a lot of punch. Winning the very first DCI EAST Championship at J. Birney Crum, against some pretty strong competition... was one of many highlights of 1977 for all of us. And for those that like to take shots at the Bridgemen...that is your prerogative. It's a free country. (At least for now) We didn't appeal to everyone,(and still don't) but then again, there are several corps that don't appeal to me, for various reasons. But I will always respect them, and give them credit for working hard, and performing to the best of their abilities! That's what drum corps is all about. Thanks for reading. Peace, love, and Happy New Year! Jim Jordan

It isn't the new millenium per se. I liked 00-05 a lot more than 08-10. last year at least musically they had some appeal for the first time since 2007. I'm not expectying Channel One. Spanish Fantasy. The Godfather. TO, La Fiesta. Just as I dont expect Cadets to trot out Copland or WSS, Madison to trot out Malaguena, Phantom 1812.. I mean I've liked cavies a lot the last 20 years ro so. Didn't know half of the music before they hit the field. Didn't matter. They designed it in a way that appealed. Phantom...same thing. Many people bag on 98 Cadets show, but I loved Stonehenge and didn't know a ###### note of it before I saw it. my watermark is melodic content you can follow with a percussion book that isn't notes rammed for the sake of ramming under donuts in the hornline. That can come in many forms...it can be WSS, it can be Spartacus, it can be Medea. all I ask for is melodic content you can follow with a perc book that makes musical sense. Not jazz, not latin jazz, not the Godfather. 20 other corps in 2010 gave me what I liked in various forms. Why can't the corps with one of the best staffs on the planet? I hate feeling this way but I'll watch Little Geoffrey 1000 more times before I pop in BD 2010. notice....I'm not talking about the chairs, or mirrors...I'm talking the music. Crown did all kinds of crazy body stuff the last few years, and some of it was "eh" to me...but musically, even with pieces I didn't know, they kept me following along. so sorry Plan it's not me saying " I want Channel One again or else" I just want meleodic content with a percussion book that isnt ramming for the sake of ramming under donuts in the hornline. Cause guess what...that ramming has hurt them more than helped them the last few years

2006 Yokohama Inspires. Best version ever.

.. or it could be that they all folded because the management wasn't that great at finance.

I respect their talent. For many, many years, I loved their shows. but lately....it comes across as robotic...no feeling. technical, precise yes...but more like Michelle Kwan than Kristi Yamaguchi. Do I expect shows like 86,88 or 94 ever year? No. Do i want melodic content and a percussion book that fits the music, not just ramming under donuts? yes. They get back to that, I'm on the BD wagon again, win or lose.

The thread title is, "What's with all the hate for BD". I stated my opinion in that my hate is not at BD (the corps is wonderful) my hate is at the condescending arrogant proposal written by the director of BD; which by the way does answer the question proposed in the thread title. So, why has that got your draws in a wad?

I'm not even going to comment on the rest of this post, but you have to be really out of touch to think that the average marching member is rolling in money or is doing DCI just for their resumes.

BD, I think more than any other corps, has mastered the art of designing shows to take maximum advantage of the judging sheets. The criticism some people have (varying from year to year) seems to be centered around this rather clinical approach, and the disappointment that they (the critics) feel because the show has been designed (so they say) with fan entertainment as an afterthought. I can bring up plenty of issues that *I* have with the way BD designs their shows, both visually and musically. I can also bring up plenty of features that BD does better than anyone else, every single year. Whether you love their shows or not, BD (99 times out of 100) will out-execute their opponents on the field. This is why they're always in the Top 5. I think too many critics take their lack of enjoyment of BD's shows and weigh that more heavily than the actual performance level they are witnessing. I loved 2007 and 2008 (even though I agreed with Phantom winning in 08), but I can't stand 2009, and I've been so-so on their past two shows. It's all a matter of opinion. In my book, BD has their share of "under-rated" and "over-rated" shows, as does every other corps in the activity.

I was sold on Premier until I got a business card with this guys name on it. NO DICE!

Just a random interjection here... Star 92 is probably the most underrated drum corps of all time. That hornline was unreal, and the things they were doing visually were actually more revolutionary than 93, as 93 just built on this. People are often dismissive of this show, simply because of the flash, but they were killing it until quarters... but the judges just didn't get the movement... and dumped them in visual. They were running their ##### off almost the whole show, had killer feet and doing all this crazy innovative stuff... while we stood on dice, wandered around a bit, and just sort of stolled through the last tune.... and we beat them in visual by 4 tenths??? Go back and watch Star 92... look at the recaps again... you'll see how little sense it makes. I'd say 92 is why Star left drum corps... not 93.

I am waiting for corps to start tackling music from video games. The best music being written today is in that genre. It's the new "movie score" for the modern age.

Its that hype of season !

I know this thread has taken off in several directions and most not that good. However, I still think that the original intent was a great one. This theory applies to all of life dealings, not just drum corps. We do tend to remember the good times and forget the bad. I really do not think the original poster was trying to lay a bad label on the "good old days", but to point out there were a few thorns with all the roses. How many times have you heard someone say, "yea, my life was rough, but if I had it to do all over, I wouldn't change a thing!" I enjoyed reading about the shortcomings they experienced because most of them, I did too.

Yes, I agree with you. It was the best time of my life as well. My intent was not to complain as some believe but just to say that it was not all roses. There were times when it was pretty tough. We have a tendancy to glorify the old days too much and it makes the younger crowd dislike us when in fact we both love this thing call drum corps just the same. Save the "whats wrong with drum corps today" stuff for another thread.

So, I assume you will be choosing the new car?

But we do have drum corps for the masses, its called DCA.

Well all you guys whining about your pee antics have no idea what happens when 100 girls gotta pee at the same time. Other corps would honk as they drove by and saw dozens of teenage girls squatting in a scatter formation in the high grasses of the chosen field. We were all praying that some kind of weird rodent or snake wasn't gonna jump up and bite. And as for the smelly uniform ... Girls rule ... boys smell!!!

First off, the "time commitment and expense of participation" in corps like Blue Saints and the all-age corps are no more now than they were 20-30 years ago (obviously adjusting the $$$ for inflataion). So, that excuse does not fly. Second, explain to me how "DCI drum corps" forced circuits like Garden State, Eastern Mass, CYO, etc. to fold? As far as I know (and I lived with a member Director for many years), all of these are separate organizations that controlled their own destiny. DCI did not have any regulatory power over these other circuits. Yet, virtually all of them folded due to lack of members. So, how is that different than my argument above?

Marched 6 years bear. Just saying it wasn't all good. Again not talking about the whole experience collectively. There's two sides to every story and once in a while we need to discuss both. I had many great memories or I wouldn't bother reading DCP would I? BTW glad you made it back. Thank you for your service. Now back to the "pee" stories.

I loved the Blue Devils, when I marched in the 70’s I really enjoyed their arrangement and style. They have always been a first class corps, both musically and visually. They always attract the most talented performers and execute their shows flawlessly. For me, they have become stale. I still find myself amazed by their shows and performances, but unmoved by the musical arrangements. While there are some very tasty parts, most are very sterile and seem technical for the sake of being technical. Even when they perform music that I am fond of, they generally ruin the tune for me in the arrangement. Their version of Summertime, stands in my mind as a good example. They turned that song in to a wooden funeral march, sucking the life out of the song. Technically superb, flawlessly performed, but a cold soulless funeral march. I can’t say that I hate the Blue Devils, because I don’t. I just don’t connect with their shows like I do other corps. Maybe Wayne Downy should take a year off and recharge his creative juices. He seems to have lost his mojo.

Tyrell is a great caption head. Took a bunch of 14 years olds and made us into a top 8- Open Class line in DCA

Why doesn't Drum Corps go back to the days of music recognizable to a large enough market to get DC back on PBS. Go back to G Bugles, set formations, not barely audible B flat Bugles needing amplification. Stop just running around with seemingly microsecond formations until the next microsecond formation. Electronics is just cheating. It's no longer the musicians playing but technology manipulating music. Forget amplification and bring back execution and precision where rifles are caught and tossed at the same time and in unison. And if you dropped a rifle it mattered. Or for that matter, it mattered if you did anything wrong. Drum corps should go back to the general period from 1975's MacArthur Park to about 1989's Phantom vs. Phantom of The Opera, maybe as far as 1992's When A Man Loves a Woman. That's when Drum Corps didn't need tuition (but had local fund raising support) and didn't have national auditions for college music majors merely trying to get something on their resume. For members marched in the local corps their friends of family marched in, or they saw in a parade. Let's have the future of music and drum corps go back to the days when DC entertained and didn't educate. Modern music has no marketable value to much of anyone other than elitists who can afford a $115 DVD or Blue Ray. It's no wonder there are so few corps now. There's nothing available on youtube, only one library in the whole State Of Ohio has the Legacy Collection. Assuming someone wanted to start a drum corps they would want to just see on their screens what DC is-or go to a library to get some DVD's- not spend $35 a shot for the oldies and $115 for a new DVD. DC has become totally disconnected to the foundation of a "youth activity" whose mission was to help youths. There's is no way I would contribute a penny to a modern Drum Corps filled with music majors with incomes large enough to travel around auditioning for a resume addition. I read on an online term paper and article in the Rockford Register Star, that in 2008 The Glassmen had only 4 members who lived in Ohio-let alone Toledo and only two Phantom members lived in Illinois. So why would I want to go to a Phantom Bingo game, when a local church helping Rockford youths have one on the same night? Corps used to have different identities, you could easily recognize Spirit as a Southern Corps with Sweet Georgia Brown. Phantom stood out playing classical. SCV stood out playing Semi-Classical. BD stood out playing jazz and The Bridgemen playing anything fun. Now modern drum corps has become cookie cutter educational music the likes of which barely tuned into classical stations play. While the Bridgemen 1977-1980 were the best influence on DC the intellectual years of Star was the worst and judges should have said something like "We don't get it." It's not just a question of the future of music-but the future of drum corps. Until Drum Corps goes back to being Drum and Bugle Corps with recognizable music, more corps will fold. You're travel costs are so much higher because there are less corps to host shows and thus farther distances to travel. We used to have 10 corps competing in the Ohio State Championships, now there are barely ten corps in a time zone. When DC lost PBS in 2002 with a decade long of disgruntled, confused viewers wondering "What Is Drum Corps now?" DC just became more intellectual and less marketable. DC needs to become more recognizable, more enjoyable, more local and more of everything it isn't. More tomorrow....

As opposed to the deeply human, soulful, non-contrived nor precisely rehearsed productions of _____________________? This is what I mean Jeff, about the odor of other stuff that sticks to them. And let me say up front, I respect your opinion here, I know it's genuine, I'm just wanting to know where the edges are. Disliking the new millennium BD is legit, but just because they aren't like they were back in the day is an unfair expectation of these designers and performers. And even though you say that "no" you don't expect shows like 86,88 or 94 every year.....the inference is: If they aren't...they don't reach your watermark threshold of production, then scowl at anything other than. 2008-2010 BD were remarkable departures from the formula, but getting those historic competitive results took the criticism to a bizarre level. For crying out loud there are still posters on this thread that are talking about "sitting in chairs" .....I mean, come on. Finally, your last sentence says it best....."be like you were and I'll like you again"...IMO (stressed) that is the saddest of expectations to give to a new generation of performers and staff.

This version:

While the 84/85 Caballeros' Malaguena with back-to-back undefeated seasons is probably the most iconic Malaguena in my mind (and certainly the model for what Madison did in '95, since A Drum Corps Fan Dream was absolutely a Caballeros tribute- you don't turn a pinwheel playing the rumps by accident!) the Caballeros' 1990 arrangement is, I think, one of the most interesting ones you'll come across- there's a development section where the entire soprano line comes in either one by one or two by two in really thrilling counterpoint, building up to the classic hit.