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When one part of a group leaves another part of a group, whether for financial, emotional or ideological reasons, there is a sense of inevitable forward momentum. I bet the VFW and CYO didn't think DCI would make it on their own. For better or worse, G7 is more concerned with fighting over the leftover pie than baking more pie. While certain groups may not necessarily NEED to change the current model, there is pride involved... whether warranted or not. Human beings do not always make decisions based on what's good for the whole. It is neither short-sighted or prescient. It is merely to satisfy the overwhelming money-eating machine we have created, rather than addressing the root of the problem... that we are not, in fact, a large, well-financed entertainment industry, but merely have some very good wordsmiths that take educational language, motivational techniques, fund-raising and non-profit knowledge to serve rather narrow needs. One always hopes for the best, but holding a rather small activity hostage to a set of values that not all ascribe to doesn't bode well. I don't have inside information, but I share the general sense of disappointment in the "me first" attitude in what could be a vibrant youth activity that becomes more and more about the adults. That's a shame. The world gets a little colder each time someone decides they are more important than someone else. Is that really the lesson drum corps was supposed to teach? Really? That's all I'm going to say about this, but it was on my mind. sincerely, Chuck Naffier Lifelong Drum Corps Fan/Participant

I wonder if we could add this to the banner image? Mike

Come for the goofy conspiracies, stay for the intelligent discussion.

1. I care. 2. How much time garfield has is not your concern. He is not on your payroll. 3. How does one make a name for themself on DCP by posting under a screen name? That makes no sense. 4. A self-evaluation may be in order regarding that last sentence. <slap!> DCP is here for people to discuss drum corps in detail. The whole reason the forum exists, and is organized in subforums and threads, is for the sake of people who wish to discuss those details. If that interests you, keep reading. If not, click on something else - the remainder of the Internet awaits your judgment with baited breath.

KH, I'm really sorry you got whacked 10 red neggies for posting your opinion. (/sarcasm ). And I really thought about posting something snide about all the bandwidth you use posting stuff that only angry white men would want to read, but I respected your post and actually gave you a greenie. I'm about to end the discussion and launch into what we can find out about the corps, but I want to get a couple of things out there before we head on. First, I am a financial professional by all the definitions you can think of but I'm not a CPA. I have, in fact, studied dozens and dozens of 990's - and not in drum corps - hoping to do exactly what you suggest this thread might become - a bash-fest. Generally speaking, that's the common reason anyone would pore over such stuff. Although I do enjoy the hunt, however, that's not my motivation and, as the threads OP, I'll ask the mods PDQ to shut it down if it reverts to that because, well, for the reasons I explained in that first post. That said, you're right, the average fan wouldn't, and doesn't, care about this subject. And in the past (that you seem to love bloviating about), when there were dozens of corps it didn't matter if one or two or a dozen corps went kerplunk; there would still be a show to go to in hundreds of locations on any summer night. We didn't care about the financials until there weren't shows any more. Then we cared. When it was too late. I happen to be able to read 990's and I'm not bad at presenting data. I was unsure who would give a darn but I see some curious onlookers, even if you're not (yet) one of them. It's only my passion for the activity that I do this exercise and post it. And, if no one cared, I'd still study the 990's because if, by chance, some corps director (or I) wanted to know why the perceived strongest corps are so strong, I'd like to be able to react with more than just a shrug. Probably not unlike why your passion takes you to the history side of the activity. I'm sure the mods are watching closely to make sure the thread doesn't get out of hand. And Perc2100, I get your point that this exercize is probably pointless except for the small benefit of pure knowledge but, if you had the opportunity, wouldn't you want to satisfy your curiosity about why the movie industry can't seem to make money? If you could peek inside, even just out of curiosity, would you? That's all this is about. But please recognize that my intent doesn't begin with a presumption that anyone, anywhere is "cooking the books"; I don't believe that for a moment even if the 990's do give the opportunity. From my perspective, I'm the type of guy who, if I discovered something that I did disagree with or not understand, I would contact the party to get clarification or voice my opinion. I believe I have that right with DCI (to voice me opinion) simply because my passion has caused me to give much to the activity over nearly 40 years. Still, I recognize that I'm probably unique in that view. This thread is about nothing more nefarious than that. But if the data promotes healthy discussion and banter on DCP, well, that's what we're good at here, after all. G

Sorry KH, but I find this topic more interesting than several of the topics you have started on the "histerical" forum. Over 7,200 posts is a lot, too me, for a busy person.

People should care about the financial health of the organizations in the activities they love, particularly when financial hardship is both a chronic and acute problem at the moment in the activity. Back in 1972 people had no power to get that information, so it's not a fair comparison. No internet, no guidestar. As an example, China just appointed new leadership, but the people on the street are essentially uninterested because they have no power to control, or even learn about, their government. That power leads to interest, which leads to action, which leads, by the way, to change.

The IRS form 990 is the tax return for non-profit organizations. As such, all of the financial data for DCI and each corps is exposed for all to see; 990's are open for public view because of the filer's tax exempt status. That is, if you can figure out how to read them because the forms are notoriously hard to read and decipher, especially for non-financial people. The financial stability of DCI and the individual corps is a hot topic in DCP-land. My hope is to present the finacial data here in little bites, giving plenty of room for discussion, in hopes that we all can become more familiar with the facts about the financial health of the activity. My method for studying the 990's is to analyze the trends over as many years as are available. Typically, there are three years of 990 data available and my goal is to spot the trends over time, subject to the 990 forms available. A word of caution: nothing that we can present here is a full explanation of the background story of the numbers; complete explanations are not part of the forms even though notes are an integral part of the form filings. It's just raw data - income, expenses, assets, and liablilites - it doesn't explain how the numbers came to be. As a result there will be a natural tendency to speculate on the reasons for the numbers - something that DCP'ers are very good at. But the real back story can only be explained by the financial people at DCI or the individual corps. Still, I've always believed that numbers can tell a story. My hope is that, by presenting the numbers here, that story will reveal itself to all of us. Disclaimer: While I work in the financial industry, this thread is not official in any capacity, and does not reflect the position or opinion of DCI, any corps, or my employer. All data comes directly from Form 990's found on www.guidestar.com, is presumed to be accurate but is not guaranteed to be so. All opinions expressed are mine, personally, are not audited, and are only based upon my amateur interpretation of the 990 forms. With all that in mind, here we go! Fun with numbers! EDIT: For those who may wish to skip to their favorite corps, I've added the following index of post numbers. First the corps name and then the post number where their 990 discussion begins: INDEX OF CORPS 990's (Name: Post number) DCI: 2 YEA!: 134 Blue Devils: 204 UPDATED 2011 NUMBERS ARE IN RED Cavaliers: 286 Carolina Crown: 367 Phantom Regiment: 437 Santa Clara Vanguard: 469 The Bluecoats: 525 Boston Crusaders: 576 Blue Knights: 603 Madison Scouts: 647 Blue Stars: 669 Spirit of Atlanta: Not available Consolidated Summary of Top-11 plus DCI: 724 The Glassmen: 739 The Troopers: 767 The Academy: 808 The Colts: 824 The Crossmen: 845 Pacific Crest: 869 The Mandarins: 891 The Cascades: 917 Jersey Surf: 957 Pioneer: 969 Consolidate Summary of All Corps: 994

Dedicated drum corps fans who seldom think about the financial realities of running a not-for-profit arts organization can learn much from a detailed discussion of corps finances as seen in the 990s. There's a reason these documents are made public: they encourage accountability and thought. The discussion could turn into a tin-hat conspiracy-hat fest as perc suggests, but it certainly hasn't yet. And when has that possibility ever discouraged DCP from tackling challenging topics in the past? Anyone from DCI or any corps who thinks their figures are being misinterpreted is certainly free to chime in with an alternate view. A free and open discussion on all sides is certainly preferable to an attitude of Move Along, Nothing To See Here, Leave This Material to Insiders With A Much Better Understanding Than You Peons Out in the Stands Can Ever Hope to Have. If a thread is--or becomes--of no interest to you, then you can either post why you think the discussion has become counterproductive or just not read it.

I think this is brilliant! The Cadets and Hop are at a totally different level when it comes to marketing their product and keeping their fans involved all throughout the year and not just from the middle of June to the middle of August. Do I think that other corps will follow their lead here with creating show concepts by fan collaboration via social media? Not a chance (IMHO). Almost every corps seems to guard their show concept in the offseason with the strength of protecting national secrets, so why all of a sudden would they open up the design process to the world (and actually ask for input???)?. No - Hop and the Cadets are in a league all their own on this one.

I have asserted elsewhere that the shows should be vetted much earlier,.........but how about a deadline of mid season in regards to the mechanical/sync rights portion, so that the audio/video products do not have to be sliced up post season............something like "no rights by July 15, remove the material"

The average fan wouldn't care. However, the people who passionate discuss drum corps on DCP are not your average fans. They're involved more than being mere seat warmers. (And by that, I do not mean that "average" fans are nothing more than "seat warmers." I believe most fans have some skin in the game.) Like some people having too much time on their hands to think of complaining about believing others having too much time on their hands? (In my case, it's true that I have too much time on my hands. Thinking about drum corps stuff keeps me off the streets, where I'd be turning over police cars and setting fires to abandoned buildings.) Back in the day, whenever that was, I can't imagine that there weren't people who cared about that. In the early 1980s, people were telling me DCI was going broke and drum corps would die. They cared...they just happened to be wrong. Were you sitting at your desk when you thought about this? Or were you on the couch? Either way, I think you may have succeeded in at least stimulating some brain cells; but I would never suggest to you or anyone else to "get a life." We all have lives...perhaps some of us need more hobbies. I myself am thinking of taking up macramé. Sorry...not into that sort of thing. (I hope I'm referring to slaps to the face and not well thought out replies.)

I find it hard to believe I was ever that thin. But then, in college, I was anorexic for awhile; but I never told anyone. It resulted from an extremely traumatic experience a couple days before I left for college, before I transferred to the music college in Chicago, which allowed me to find out about Cavaliers. In a number of ways, I've said that drum corps saved my life. (And that's not an exaggeration.) I know it's had a positive impact on countless lives, and that's why we've got to do whatever we can to keep it alive and encourage it to thrive.

If you went to BOA you could simply buy your 2012 audio/video products at the DCI booth. No shipping to pay and you can watch/listen as soon as you get home. I think I was the first person in the country to have the CD's in my hands. I bought the CD's Thursday morning at 10:50 AM. The person working the DCI booth had to cut open the box the CD's were shipped in. And for the record, I'm VERY happy with the CD's. I will now let everyone go back to their daily dose of complaining. Z

GO GOVIE'S 2012 (From a NEW JERSEY Fan!!!)

When will DCI announce the 2013 tour schedule? Always get jumpy this time of year anticipating the show dates and corps.

Thursday Nov. 15th only. Lets help out the Minnesota Brass. http://www.mnbrassinc.us/index.php/support/fundraising/give-to-the-max

Chuck Naffier has made some interesting points. No question, DCI did replace the VFW Championships. The end was not amicable, at least from what I remember hearing and what I have read, but a good part of the reason was that drum corps people wanted to determine how drum corps would be judged in competition which is not unreasonable. As far as CYO is concerned, I don't think DCI can be blamed. Parish bands, drum corps, and drill teams in the Boston area decreased as parishes began having to hire lay people to work in parishes and teach in schools due to fewer priests and nuns. For many parishes the choice became keeping the school or keeping the drum corps and the school had to win. As far as the CYO Nationals that Boston hosted each year is concerned, that ended when it stopped being profitable. It was DCI sanctioned as early as 1972, due I'm sure to Dom Bianculi, the show's director heeding the counsel that no doubt came from 27th's George Bonfiglio and BAC's Goerge Bevilacqua that DCI was the way of the future. Now as far as the G7 leaving DCI, I'm not sure it would be in their best interests. For one thing, didn't quite a few TOC shows lose money and play to empty stadiums last summer? However, I think that last year taught us all something. The top corps were exciting. The rivalry between BD and Crown was riveting, people wondering when or if Crown would end BD's perfect season which did not happen, but many (including me) thought it might. Phantom edged above Cadets, with SCV and Bluecoats potentially surprising everyone. BAC edging ahead of Cavaliers at finals was exciting as well, but there was so much more to the season. Further down we wondered what would happen with Madison, would they edge out Cavaliers? Crossmen's reentry was exciting and emotional. We can't forget the crowd pleasers of the season: Spirit's "Lady Luck,"Jersey Surf, Colts with the best screamer solo with "All By Myself" and Pacific Crest's fulfilling show. Mandarins and Cascades added a certain flavor and we can't forget Troopers. The corps that placed 8-22 all added a great deal to competitions that add to the experience of drum corps. A show with the best competing against the best can be exciting, but drum corps without the whole family for me at least is not drum corps.

(In my best Schultz voice...) "I know nothing. I want to know nothing." And while I appreciate the sentiment, I'm a little uncomfortable in any situation being refered to as a "Deep Throat".

This is simply a place to put drum corps video clips that give you goosebumps (or do you say goose pimples?...because I don't). Anyhow, I"m seriously expecting my plus button to get hit many times for this one:

The Centurions would like to announce Part II of our 2013 show Maroon, Black, and Gold: “Clair de Lune,” (from Suite Bergamasque) by Claude Debussy. Meaning "moonlight," it is a lush ballad with a smooth bass line and rich harmonies. Along with dark shades from the guard, the 2013 Centurions will portray the moonlit night, and our second color, Black. Info about our final movement, Gold, coming soon... To find out more about the corps and our show, make plans to attend our Open House on November 24th! Check out our Open House thread here for more info.

Join the Sun Devils on December 1st and 2nd, at Citrus High School, for our Drum Corps Experience Weekend. At DCE, you will experience an entire Sun Devils camp weekend, including a performance on Sunday afternoon for friends and family!!! We have been busy preparing for the 2013 season and want to see you with us! We've already moved into our new home at Citrus High School and could not be happier! Inverness and Citrus are ready, are you?

So....I have a lot of kids in band and some of them may want to do corps. Maybe we can work something out for them???? We need a percussion instructor. Hmmmmmmm PM me! We will have over 230 in our marching band next year.

about time you got back to work!!!

Tour Goggles.

Hey...although I don't subscribe to conspiracy theories, I find them a fun read. For the record, DCI has never once told me I couldn't post anything on DCP, nor have they told me I shouldn't, or even suggested I might want to think twice before posting something. I've always had a free hand from DCI to speak my mind and share my opinion and/or knowledge. Once in awhile, I do go to someone in charge and ask them for a clarification about something that readers have been wondering, and then I share what I've found out. But I believe those in a position of power at DCI respect that an independent Boo can have good PR effects for the organization. I respect both those who run DCI and DCP and I hope to be back doing the "Full Boo" soon.

Giving a Bump!! PLEASE NOTE A TIME CHANGE Due to SAT Testing on campus.. Times for Saturday are adjusted CHECK IN STARTS AT 11:30am EXPERIENCE KICKS OFF AT 12:00 NOON COST IS $40.00 for the weekend. (includes food for weekend). this is also an overnight camp! For more info... check the website or email execdirector@sundevilsdrumcorps.org

Wow! thats a great pick up for troop! He played under paul in 2006(Sanford) and 2007. I think he was doing some grad school at North Texas? I remember him from the Rhythm X Celebrity show. People should definitely go audition for troop! Overall there are some GREAT designers for troopers this year!! 2013 is gonna be a great year for them!! AUDITION FOR TROOP!!!

Truly, I don't think it hurt me in the long run. But when we went to the t-brace for 1977 and I moved to the heavier marimba, my back was screaming and I had to have frequent chiropractic adjustments by someone on staff. (He was a big bus driver who could just pick me up and shake me out, and I would hear my entire back pop as the compressed vertebrae went back into place.) It might have even honed my writing skills, as I was determined to get into an occupation that never required any heavy lifting. As for my sense of humor; I think that was sealed when I was one-year-old and pulled a wooden high chair over on myself, hitting and breaking my nose and causing me to sound like a duck when I talk.

I agree with most of this. The dark in to light, light to dark, good vs. evil themes have been waayyy over done. Dark, fragmented atonal music...yeah...way overdone. To the OP....Blue Knights had a history of dark shows...so...they have proven to be a good candidate for it. Occasionally i attended marching band contests. When a band presents something abstract and/or dark...I can't help but think what the grandparents must be thinking deep down. Sure...their obvious response is to cheer for their grandchild....but deep down I could imagine them thinking...'What the heck is this stuff'

I kinda want a gif of :46 xD

yeah, but here's the thing.....Hop needs every penny he can get for YEA, so I don't see him going this route. Surely he Doesn't think BD isn't going to pay for all of the bills Hop creates when they split. well hopefully for Dave Gibbs heart he doesn't

you'll find in any endeavour, often the creative types could give a #### about the financial part. they're more worried about their "art"

you mean the ones that want nothing more than to not have to deal with undergrads (at many schools)?

Name 10 grant proposals that were funded in the past 10 years where a relationship didn't already exist between the drum corps and the donor. The key here is looking at an already established relationship. Successful development officers who lead fund raising campaigns are all about leveraging that relationship. Philanthropic organizations receive numerous grants for programs that provide "some sort of educational opportunity for high school & college age students" all the time. While it may not be a popluar opinion for those involved in this activity, many of these donors can see much better use of their money. It's all based on perception. Provide funding for programs that serve disadvantaged youth or donate funds to a program that charges its members $2500 in tuition and simply serves as another outlet for its "faculty" members? In my opinion, if a drum corps really wanted to connect with the understanding of donors, they should just call staff members coaches instead. People get that, and you can then educate them on the benefits of the activity instead of the names of all the positions.

EXACTLY!

It would be nice to see this corps on the field!

GOOD LUCK " White SABERS ". So glad to see so much progress from you.

Do you think you may make it on the field next season?

My age out season, 2005, I tore my Anterior Tibialis early in the season. This should have been a season ending injury. The injury itself prevents a foot flex, making marching almost impossible. I spent most of the last part of spring training in daily physical therapy, took steroidal treatments over the course of the season (learning to do the injections myself so I could do them over tour). I taped the foot into flexion and wore a different size shoe over that foot, so I could really double the tape up. This worked well on the forward marching, but I really had to "fake" the backwards march and the jazz run. The left foot is always in flexion (you can even spot me in the videos). I sat out most of the basics/fundamentals over the course of the summer and limited myself to one run thru a day on rehearsal days (we sometimes did 2 or 3). It was a very difficult season. Along with winning the "band aid" award at banquet (one of the most crushing things that has ever happened to me), I also ended up feeling like I held the group back the entire season. The staff was very, very accommodating up until the last swing of tour. The tour itself was weighing on them, and seeing me constantly sitting out didn't sit well with them. I forced myself back in for every rep and every set for the rest of the season at about ATL. Couldn't have done it without Kevin Rabon. Tough love, but a guy that means a million bucks to me. Surgery afterwards to remove scar tissue and reattach the muscle completely. Still walk with a limp if I haven't moved in a while, and haven't really been able to run on it since.

Being the off season. Let's step off into Fantasy Land. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Big Changes in DCA & DCI Membership for 2014." In a news release from the Top Two managing groups for "Drum Corps" it was announced that. In DCI: Both the Minnnesota Brass and and the Reading Buccaneers have applied for DCI World Class membership. In DCA: The Mandarins, Cascades, BD-B, SCV Cadets, Nashua Spartans, Colt Cadets & Music City, have applied for DCA membership. The BD-B and SCV Cadets, & Mandarins, would be in the New DCA West with Renegades, Socal Dream and a few other WC & Open Class Corps. No word on which DCA class Spartans, Colt Cadets, & Music City will be in. Their was also, no word from Pioneer, 7th Regiment & Raiders. They did show interest. But in all of those cases, they were worried about their closeness to some present day DCA Corps. The Applications for DCA have to be submitted "within 30 days of the end of 2013" season. (A special reorganization rule, being made, so they would Not have to sit out a year) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------> -------> ***** OK All. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. I KNOW. ***** <------ <------- (Just playing a "What If Thing". But How do YOU think things would turn out at the end of the 2014 Season. If it did)

I am broke! My car is dying, need new rear rotors and brakes! Very little food in the apartment. I have money to pay rent, electric bill, and gas in my car to get to work. My wife can't find a job. Save my wife and I!!!! All true!!!

Sorry You took my post that way. To say ".... to take the angle that to say 'boys wil be boys, let them play....". Not even close to what I was saying in "MY post". I Said: " This is so sad." --- and it is. " Going on and on, page after page. Now going on to other things even. " --- and it is. " Bad things have happened in the Past in BOTH Junior and Senior. " --- and that is a Fact. " Let's hope that some cooler heads can figure this out. What is the best for all is a Goal. " --- and I hope they can. " (The Right answer is the Hard Part.) So we have to Hope, we can Please as many as possible at least. " --- Hope for Best out come. Seems like a Positive way to go. " DCA and its members have come a Long way cleaning things up from the Past, and growing Bigger & Better every year, On and Off the field. " --- Well I, and many others ---> DO think DCA and it's Members have come a long, long, way improving over the years cleaning up on past mistakes and things. " The Renegades have done a lot to get DCA All Age, on the West Coast (and a top 10 every year at that. With fans Nation wide)." --- Well I do take it as a Positive that Renegades got DCA on the West Coast and at a High level. So if they have to do more work at cleaning things up. Doing whatever it take to make things right. I Hope they do. " I just hate to see it all wrecked. " --- Going on and on, page after page, on here is Not The Answer. --->The People involved, need to do whatever it takes to get the Best Positive out come possible. That Is What I Was Saying!!

This is so sad. Going on and on, page after page. Now going on to other things even. Bad things have happened in the Past in BOTH Junior and Senior. Let's hope that some cooler heads can figure this out. What is the best for all is a Goal. (The Right answer is the hard part.) So we have to Hope, we can Please as many as possible at least. DCA and its members have come a Long way cleaning things up from the Past, and growing Bigger & Better every year, on and off the field. The Renegades have done a lot to get DCA All Age, on the West Coast (and a top 10 every year at that). With fans Nation wide. I just hate to see it all wrecked.

Wrong way to think of this. No matter details of what happened. Bad things have happened for years. You can not blame EVERYONE in a Organization of Corps. " Kickhalt is saying he's hesitant of marching ANY DCA corps because its assumed that if one corps misbehaves.. they ALL do. " I know back in the late '60's. A Corps traveled about 1000 miles to a Nationals. They ended up doing thousands of dollars damage to a hotel. The Hotel sent a bill to the sponsoring org. So the org paid the bill. Then met with the entire Corps and told them. (THE MEMBERS). Come up with the money to pay the sponsor back, OR. 'They would sell ALL the Corps equipment to get the money back." The Equipment was SOLD and the Corps was No More. This was in JUNIOR CORPS. No one said "All Jr Corps were bad. No one said Every Corps in their Circuit was bad. No one said every Corps in their city/area was bad. No one even said everybody in that Corps was bad. So things have happened for Many years, and ways to solve the problem are varied. But, Blaiming ALL "SR" or "All Age" is dumb.

Great news John an interesting sidenote, my father - one of the world's greatest drum corps fans - spent the last decade of his life in Inverness... So, I know it well... great area...

Lets make it Happen, Cap'in

You can't have a thread about drum corps goosebumps without this:

YES. There seems to be little interest in the Mini Corps show at DCA Annapolice. One has to wonder why a show that was growing, So Big - So Fast, has such little going on. Other than Centurions and Rocketeers, Looks like Many of the usual Corps are not interested. Some that have been coming for Many Years. Just think, just a year or more ago. People were wondering: "How many could they fit in the show." Now they seem to have FIVE. Guess there will be No Problem this year Time wise (even if 5 more did apply).