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Jim and Krista, Thank you very much for your lunch sponsorship this weekend in Reading. Special people like you Fawbers gives us encouragement in a way that our younger members start to realize that there really are so many wonderful people behind them. Thank you for sharing a meal with us!

No, it's part of the reason they are contenders every year. The other part is the fact that no other corps performs consistently at such a high level. You know, what this thread is supposed to be about.

I guess that explains why Bluecoats have had such crappy placements the last couple years. It's that darn music the kids are listening to on their headphones!

God no. People don't like when Cadets tell a story or when Cadets DON'T tell a story.

A lot of people crowned Cabs a week early last year

BigW, Thank you so much for your help, encouragement, and the very generous and kind gesture this weekend. It is folks like you that are showing this new era of Thunderbirds what drum corps and family have so much in common. Our members have continued to come to know that there are so many people that have come before them that are behind their efforts to carry the Thunderbird name forward,.................this kind of stuff makes memories W,..................Thanks again!

Frankly, your post is perfectly lucid.

A lot of the season Crown was out of the hunt because of their design, but they were able to tweak it sufficiently by the end. This was pretty impressive, IMO, because I thought they were done for with their show design in mid July... Their tweaks moved them to a top 2-3 design, which is where they finished. Without the design changes, they are sitting in 4th/5th.

Dunno. Looking quickly over the previous ten seasons, it appears that this is the first year since 2005 that no corps had scored 90 by the third-last regular-season weekend of the season (meaning Aug. 15-16 for this year). And in 2005, Buccaneers had scored 89 way back on July 30, two weekends earlier than they did this year. In 2005, just four corps would reach 90 before Championships, the others being Bushwackers, Statesmen, and Brigadiers. In every other year 2006-2014, at least one, often two, and sometimes three corps had already scored 90 or better by three weeks out. In 2009, four corps had scored 90 by now, but the number would only rise to five before Championships. Only twice in the past ten years have six corps reached 90 before Championships (2007 and 2008). So that's what recent precedent says. What does this year foretell? Two corps, Bucs and Cabs, are all but a lock to score 90 tomorrow. C2 is close enough that they comfortably should do so by next week. MBI has earned a regular-season 90 in every year since 2007, but this is the first season in that time that they've not yet had an official DCA score already, so we have no clear gauge. Still, maybe they'll come out tonight a higher score than any other corps this year has seen. (If not, they may not get a chance tomorrow, based on the forecast for St. Peter.) Fusion and Sabers would have to show a very fast rate of improvement since their last score to achieve 90 by Reading. CV would need to do astoundingly well, with tomorrow being their last pre-championship appearance (and dodging raindrops as well, although with better chance of a dry Saturday show than in Minnesota). Kidsgrove didn't reach 90 before DCA Finals in either 2010 or 2012, but who knows? Finally, Sunrisers' most recent score of 80.35 on Aug. 2, five weeks from championships, is actually better than what Bushwackers had on Aug. 3 last year (79.50), which was only four weeks from championships (because Labor Day was earlier). And Bush went on to earn a 90.10 on Aug. 23, improving more than ten points in just three weeks (before dropping a little at Championships). To sum up: there are all sort of possibilities either way. It should be very interesting to watch! Still not impossible, still not too likely. However, it does appear just barely within the realm of possibility that eight corps could reach 90 in Finals. As far as I can tell, that hasn't happened before in DCA (although there have been years in which seven corps scored 92 or better; I don't see that happening). There is also the slight possibility that every Open Class corps will score at least 80 by Prelims, which hasn't happened since 2010. It depends on how much Sky can improve over the next two weeks. And while Govenaires are highly unlikely to match White Sabers' score last year in Class A, they do have pretty good odds on beating their own best ever Finals score; they need only improve by more than 1.5 points from what they scored today. Well, well. Fusion Core (89.90) and Kidsgrove Scouts (89.50) very nearly proved Dan's prediction correct. Regarding the italicized possibility, it's not out of the question. Skyliners improved by 2.80 points in one week. If they can improve by 1.70 points this week (assuming no one else drops significantly)--which is, however, better than their average weekly improvement this year--every Open Class corps in Prelims will break 80, for the first time in five years. I think that would be a good thing. As concerns the underlined possibility, of eight corps scoring 90 in Finals for the first time ever, that's now looking reasonably likely. Six corps (Bucs, Cabs, MBI, C2, Scouts, Fusion) appear to be locks to do so, and two others (CV and Sabers) are both close enough that they probably can make it.

Putting numbers aside, The "Power " was and has always been in the hands of the performer. Who presents it? who makes it work or doesn't?who communicates it to an audience and a judge? Who brings a product to life? ALL done by performers. The best design in the world if not done well and correctly is only dots on paper and a thought that never quite materializes. A good staff puts the power into the hands of the MMs with good design, good training, etc etc

***Moderators: I hope it's OK if I spam this forum a little bit, but it's for a good cause. If this topic is not allowed, please remove it. Thanks!*** Calling all drum corps fans! Each year, Drum Corps Europe runs a free live webcast of the DCE European Championships. Although the crew members of the webcast are all volunteers, it still requires money to run the 13 hour multicam webcast. We would like to keep the webcast free for our viewers, so we can show as many people as possible what a fantastic activity this is! Therefore we started a crowdfunding campaign on Patreon. Drum corps fans around the globe can help by sponsoring the webcast, starting from only $1. We hope that our drum corps brothers and sisters will help us by pledging a small amount to keep us 'on air'. And we have rewards for you if you pledge! Please visit our Patreon page at http://www.patreon.com/drumcorpseurope Thanks in advance for helping us out! Best regards, Marco Janssen Drum Corps Europe http://www.drumcorpseurope.org

I disagree. I think they shouldnt be content and this is just the way they run things is a lame motto. Wheres the competitive spirit? They are miles away from the top half of the group, miles...,i know they were more competitive a few years back. Changes are in order

Well....based on the number of DCA titles they've won in their history, I would say they've been married more times than Larry King!!!

Conversely, if you'd given BD's show to SCV's members, they'd have fallen on their faces from the word go. Design and performer go hand-in-hand, which is the point you're missing.

OMG, this is ridiculous. You have no idea why Crown chose the music to Rach Star. You have opinions, nothing more. Quit trying to make is sound like your theories are proven science. They're not. Give me Kevin Smith saying their designers chose music from the judge's youth and I'd believe you. But I think about the judges that night (and I know two personally) and they don't fit your "average judge age" presumption, so the brilliant designers you reference wouldn't have been so brilliant after all had they used your method to decide what music to play. I know the designers of that show and they did nothing of the sort.

While judging Drum Corps competitions is as every bit the subjective enterprise as to when I was judging ( pre DCI ), it is the performance execution captions that tend to be less subjective than the Show Design captions.( ie, GE captions ) For one example... a frack in brass playing is universally accepted by judges both then and now to be a bad thing. Same thing with pitch, intonation, etcetera, etcetera. This is a " HOW ' something is done. Now... whether the judge likes the song ( or notes ) is much more of a subjective matter, imo. This falls then in to the " WHAT " is done. Here, the judge looks at such things as demand, complexity etcetera, etcetera. In other words, does he or she LIKE it. This is very subjective. And when we eliminate or diminish in some way the brass judge ( or the Percussion, Guard judge ) from the judged competition we are by extension naturally moving into the realm of the GE captions to fill that void a bit more than ever before.. And these GE captions are undeniably then... and now.... THE most subjective captions of any of the captions on the judging sheets. And the GE captions is where these current DCI Show Designers get their points on the current sheets in the diminishment or loss of the performance execution generated captions in these judged competitions.

Exactly. Carolina Crown won themselves a DCI Title just 2 seasons ago with a 6th place finish in the Performance Execution caption of Percussion ( as they had a terrific adult created Show Design). Has ANY DCI corps won a DCI Title outright with a 6th place in one of the 2 GE ( Show Design ) captions ? No. Could a Corps win a DCI Title in the future finishing as low as 6th in either of the two GE captions ? Of course not. Its entirely out of the question under the current sheets. Thats what this thread topic is all about, ie the shift of points to be had under the current sheets from performer based, to adult Show Design based. Now.. noone here is saying that performance execution is not critically important. We are saying we notice a shift from performer based to more of a Show Design based system than we have ever seen in DCI ever before. The loss of full judging panels, with the ancillary loss of these performance based captions for much of the season is simply one visible manisfestation of this..

I'm probably too simple in thinking this is just summer marching band, but I can't twist my mind enough to understand how any design can be anything without the kids performing it. It just makes no sense to my simple brain that a beautiful design just jumps off the page by itself without the execution, good or bad, of the kids.

I'm seen a few people on here make the connection with Legacy (the WGI group), but honestly I think there are only 3 people marching this summer who marched Legacy during winter, and there were only 2 or 3 people on Legacy who marched Gold in 2014. The groups actually seem to be pretty unrelated besides finances honestly. As a member, the biggest boon I see to the guard size is recruitment by the members. The person who convinced me to march was individually responsible for at least 6 people joining. The people who have marched just tend to be very vocal about enjoying the experience, and it draws more people in. Also, we have amazing guard staff (and I'm not just saying that because I know Drew reads DCP threads). We have two Madison alum and two Crown alum (3 of whom marched First Flight Winterguard), and they are all so good at what they do. Our caption head is probably the single most talented guard choreographer/instructor in Eastern NC. Every program that he touches flourishes.

The scores vary from year to year, but the placements are a better measure of how good you are in comparison to your peers. 18th place this year was the lowest SOA has finished since '96. Add that to the reckless spending and you get a recipe for folding.

I hope Cadets wait until June to make their show announcement.

If you can put your bad manners to rest for a minute YOU yourself pointed out less execution judges on the field. Thats what i was talking about. and that even with less judges up close corps execute better . STOP LOOKING FOR TROUBLE... pathetic. A word i know you are used to DAN! Funny how you point something out that is in your twisted mind thinks has nothing to do with a topic yet you are the queen of hijacking. One line of a post then run with it. HMM defines troll pretty well. How about an adult response like ( what do you mean about execution ) or Yes we may be talking about design over execution BUT) of course not you are obviously on attack with those who see thru you always. No response needed...thanks

I think a lot of the time it's rights issues.

I wouldn't count out any of the top 4. Cabs showed how easy it is to pick up a field penalty, even in finals...... While you are likely correct, one of the three bridesmaids may catch more lightning than bouquet ! It is possible...... and I believe Cabs, Cadets2, and MBI are primed for it. Regardless, I think 2015 will be remembered by DCI and DCA for an exciting new era of parity....based on excellence, rather than MLB, NFL, NHL, NBA parity based on 80% of all teams being equally mediocre. Even as a dinosaur, I LOVE WHAT DRUM CORPS HAS BECOME !!!!!

I don't see the 2015 DCA Champion already 'in the bag,' but looking at the top spots realistically, it does look like the overall winner will be from among 4 corps. From what I'm told about last night in Reading, Cadets2 have really come together and could surprise in Rochester. The season is coming to boil now !

Probably because MM talent gravitates heavily now to the corps in the off seaaon with the adult created Show Designs that are most rewarded heavily on the judging sheets. Its not that Show Designs were not rewarded on the scoring sheets in the past. Ifs that the adult created Show Design is more heavily rewarded on the newer, recently changed scoring sheets than perhaps ever before. For example ( of a dozen we could provide ), the Cadets and Crown this season both had equally hard working MM's. Late in the last 2 closing weeks of season, the adult staffers in the Cadets made a uniform change for their MM's ( and a brought back of the old Z pull they've used about a half dozen times now in their closer over the years ), while the adult staffers in Crown made a major Show Design change for the closer that changed the entire dynamic of their Show Design thematically and brought it all together. Do I think this was the principal reason that this had Crown pass Cadets the last week of the season ? Yes, I would say so. This would be my observation and assessment anyway.

Your voice however was in Reading. You timed the corps intro perfectly

Thanks! And welcome to the Delta Group...Susan was traveling to ATL for the BoD meeting this weekend and was delayed in pushing out the latest update. I should have that today. I also heard last night that there have been 1091 interest and audition forms for 2016 already turned in. SoA will be stronger and more relevant than ever...We could use your support!!

I agree...... In fact, if Sun has a great run to open the scoring of the top-9, it will put upward pressure on the scores, as what happened a few years back when the Alliance percussion performance was so good that the perc judge was starting with a higher than usual number for corps to follow. Even without upward pressure from below, I see CV and WS as easily crossing 90 by a point or two. VERY impressed by Scouts, I watched a bit of their Thursday practice at Passaic County Tech. Horns were crisp and over by the color guard, flags were spinning very together. They were focused !

This sounds like "On Air". I enjoyed that show, and they did well with it.

What an interesting concept. When I marched in the Sunrisers (1963-73) there was never any discussion about whether or not you performed cojones to the wall. We did that when we played for prelims, finals, parades or delicatessen openings. There just wasn't any other way.

it reflects a shift from a centralized goal of Showcasing Elite Talent Combined with Power into more Employing Available Talent within Exceptional Design. It does not mean that Displaying Member Talent has gone wayside, but that contending corps prioritize Advancing Thematically via Talent rather than simply Showcasing (or showing off). the competitive element that has been removed from the member's agency is Show Design. Not that it a corps' destiny was ever entirely in the hands of the members, but it could be argued that execution formerly controlled a greater degree of the outcome than it does currently. When there were fewer variations conceptually to a show (see: pre-2000), talent and ethos could carry the day if the concept and design were acceptably good. Now, with such a high ceiling to design, no amount of talent/skill/determination by the members can 'rescue' a show with only average design. General Effect represents 40% of the score, and a show's GE potential is largely established over a drawing-board by the design staff long before auditions. While a corps can improve thematically and GE-wise during the season, like other captions it becomes increasingly difficult to gain ground competitively at the higher levels of contention.

HOLY IMPOSTERS BATMAN! That is most certainly not me. However, this is ironic that I went to college with a few of the design staff. I have way better hair than that guy. Though while I am crazy enough to work as teaching staff, recruiter, admin...etc etc etc. I am not crazy enough (at least at this point in time) to actually want to be the captain of a drum corps. And yes, I'm a creative type by day, tromboner by night. Worst superhero ever.

Thanks, man! DCA does have a great value for so, so many reasons, going way back. My sister and I were able to march somewhere and not break my parents' bank for one thing. My sister was taught by great people, some DCI cats (Goodhart, Hardimon would come in once in awhile). Same for me (Frank Dorritie, Dave Rohrer, Ray Eyler). We both had a great experience for comparatively not a lot of money. The same applies now! Education may not be what DCA sells to the fans- but for the members, it's excellent. Not everyone can afford to tour but wants the challenge. Some of us older folks just like to hit the field and challenge themselves, make the fans happy, and have their friends close by. They can do that in DCA. You hit on the big problem every design team has. There's this cliff to oblivion where the shows become too difficult to clean in the time allotted that if you're not careful, you go right over this cliff. It's a sheer drop, and it's an ugly thing to see happen. The problem is, if you don't get as close to the cliff as you can without getting sucked over the edge, you'll lose. The Bucs last year got about as close as one can get to that edge and not go over. Their ship was half over the edge and ready to go over until Finals when they righted it. In some ways I think they learned a lot from it. I have a guess that the lesson the Cabs learned was that they needed to take more of a risk and get even closer. One corps that really gets this and comes up with things that are very thoughtful and sophisticated, but not asking their people to do the impossible and implode their organization are the Sabres. This also brings up another good point here that people have discussed recently. I think fans understand that they're not going to see a finished product or a wonderfully polished one at Cabs at the Beach. But I think one of the things some (not all) people say now and then is that they'd like to still see something that's decent early on and not leaving them cringing at times. That's also an issue for a lot of crazy reasons that don't line up well with each other. You put together too 'easy' a program, take the lead, don't add content and enhance the program... you stall out and get passed. (Westshore '82- been there and done just that!) You also want folks to attend contests early on in the season. Personally, I want the show hosts at these contests to have their coffers filled with loot. Otherwise- we don't have DCA at all. If people think... well... "Why go early to something that's not good.. or wait 'till, say Scranton".... it leaves a lot of shows with missing people and missing revenue. I don't have a real answer, but it's something that makes me think. It has to make show hosts think. It has be in the back of the minds of the corps Admins and something they need to impress upon their creative staffs. From listening to some people, I do think this is going on to a point. I guess the question would be, is it going on enough? I have no answer.

Gold's guard has been the real deal for several years now. I have no idea where they get their members and staff... but whatever they are doing, it's working!!!

BD 2010

Double Panel for finals, rather than just doubled perc and GE. Also make the GE judges Visual and Music Specific again. GE Visual - 2 Judges GE Music - 2 Judges Field Brass Ensemble Brass Field Percussion Ensemble Percussion Music Analysis - 2 Judges Field Visual - 2 Judges Visual Analysis - 2 Judges Guard - 2 Judges Do this for Atlanta and Allentown, Finals Night. No music samples that last more than a beat. Every sound must be made in real time. Color Guard judges must actually look at simultaneous responsibility. Moving while spinning should get more credit that just spinning. Poor singing that is amplified should be looked at just like poor brass playing.