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4 hours ago, BWise said:

Except the year Crown was robbed with their “Relentless” show .. how many captions did they win?!  Three but only got bronze .. BD wins no captions and gets Silver .. Bloo wins with only GE .. based on caption awards not finals scores of course  

 

Well, that's the thing - BD won guard and visual at finals, Crown didn't. That's why Crown lost. Had Crown or BD won, I wouldn't have argued otherwise, just as I won't argue Bloos win. I do understand why Bloo won, it was without a doubt the most innovative show of the season, and they without a doubt deserved High GE.

I really hate that they average championship week for caption awards. I believe it should just be based on finals night. Why not average the total scores of all three nights to determine the winner? DCI makes no sense sometimes.

Edited by queenanne_1536
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37 minutes ago, queenanne_1536 said:

I really hate that they average championship week for caption awards. I believe it should just be based on finals night. 

100% ditto. The possibility of a corps having 2 days of outstanding and at finals laying an egg and still coming out the winner just doesn't seem right. 

 

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45 minutes ago, OldSnareDrummer said:

100% ditto. The possibility of a corps having 2 days of outstanding and at finals laying an egg and still coming out the winner just doesn't seem right. 

 

The average stops one judge from determining the caption trophy.

Any system will have its down side. The current system seems the fairest of the options.

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3 hours ago, Sideways said:

Crown/BD/Blue were splitting performance captions all finals week, with Santa Clara snagging percussion.  Crown got the overall average on brass, guard, and visual performance.  GE often wins the day when performance captions are that tight.  Blue's show was the "GE moment" and never stopped...they were consensus winner in GE all three nights and we know how that played out.  Crown went soft on GE with the "mercy" play at the end...not saying that made the difference (but an extra death or two worked for Phantom in 2008).

When in doubt...(if the performance level is already there) always go with the gratuitous GE.

Yeah, but they changed the ending with good reasoning. Had the events just prior to the start of the season not happened, there would have been no mercy. They made a statement, and if that landed them in 3rd then it was better than a win in my opinion. People complained all season, but until it happens to you, you don't understand.

 

1 hour ago, queenanne_1536 said:

Well, that's the thing - BD won guard and visual at finals, Crown didn't. That's why Crown lost. Had Crown or BD won, I wouldn't have argued otherwise, just as I won't argue Bloos win. I do understand why Bloo won, it was without a doubt the most innovative show of the season, and they without a doubt deserved High GE.

I really hate that they average championship week for caption awards. I believe it should just be based on finals night. Why not average the total scores of all three nights to determine the winner? DCI makes no sense sometimes.

I can somewhat argue Bluecoats win, because I still believe the cleanest show should win, and that was without a doubt the dirtiest show I've ever seen win a marching arts competition. That being said, things won't change until the weight GE has is lifted. Eventually the entire sheet will just be GE. Lol.

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9 minutes ago, Incognito365 said:

I can somewhat argue Bluecoats win, because I still believe the cleanest show should win, and that was without a doubt the dirtiest show I've ever seen win a marching arts competition. That being said, things won't change until the weight GE has is lifted. Eventually the entire sheet will just be GE. Lol.

I'm probably biased, because I was never a Bluecoats fan, and still don't consider myself one (although I appreciate what they do), but the first time I saw their show in 2016 I had hoped they would win because it was, IMO, the most innovative of the season. I agree, GE carries too much weight.

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Just now, queenanne_1536 said:

I'm probably biased, because I was never a Bluecoats fan, and still don't consider myself one (although I appreciate what they do), but the first time I saw their show in 2016 I had hoped they would win because it was, IMO, the most innovative of the season. I agree, GE carries too much weight.

Oh, it was innovative for days, and in all honesty I'm not a fan either but I bought a show shirt (however overpriced for the design) because I knew it would win that year. I came to appreciate what they did and the music book is one of my favorites, but that doesn't change the fact that they were dirty all season and never really seemed to clean up from the time I saw them live on July 16th to finals.

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43 minutes ago, xandandl said:

The average stops one judge from determining the caption trophy.

Any system will have its down side. The current system seems the fairest of the options.

I have heard that argument before. Well if that's the case, then what stops one judge from determining who is champion? Why not average all three nights of the total scores? That's why it doesn't make sense to me. Why worry about one judge determining the outcome of a caption than one judge determining the outcome of the entire competition?

We saw that in 1996. Regiment was 5th in GE in quarters, 3rd in semis and 1st in finals. The GE caption (one judge) decided that Blue Devils and Regiment were going to tie, rather than BD winning outright, and Regiment possibly finishing 3rd. Now, with that being said, do I feel Regiment deserved to win GE? Yes. But had BD or Cadets won GE I wouldn't have argued they shouldn't have either. All three were worthy in my opinion, and I'm not qualified to be a judge. But, was it fair? Would the quarters or semis GE judges have awarded Regiment higher than 3rd in GE in finals? Did they themselves get it wrong Thursday and Friday when they judged and scored Regiment too low? All are possibilities, but the inconsistencies are just stupid. DCI should be more worried about getting the overall champion right than a caption winner, and we should be able to have full faith in judges that they are going to do the job to the best of their abilities and be objective. I think they do.

Edited by queenanne_1536
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16 minutes ago, queenanne_1536 said:

I have heard that argument before. Well if that's the case, then what stops one judge from determining who is champion? Why not average all three nights of the total scores? That's why it doesn't make sense to me. Why worry about one judge determining the outcome of a caption than one judge determining the outcome of the entire competition?

We saw that in 1996. Regiment was 5th in GE in quarters, 3rd in semis and 1st in finals. The GE caption (one judge) decided that Blue Devils and Regiment were going to tie, rather than BD winning outright, and Regiment possibly finishing 3rd. Now, with that being said, do I feel Regiment deserved to win GE? Yes. But had BD or Cadets won GE I wouldn't have argued they shouldn't have either. All three were worthy in my opinion, and I'm not qualified to be a judge. But, was it fair? Would the quarters or semis GE judges have awarded Regiment higher than 3rd in GE in finals? Did they themselves get it wrong Thursday and Friday when they judged and scored Regiment too low? All are possibilities, but the inconsistencies are just stupid. DCI should be more worried about getting the overall champion right than a caption winner, and we should be able to have full faith in judges that they are going to do the job to the best of their abilities and be objective. I think they do.

There are strong known biases in the judging community. Also there was a judging scandal in the 2000's where alot of well known tenured DCI judges were found out to be manipulating the system...  Cant remember the exact details or who was involved, but the average has been around since then to remove the ultimate power that one judge has. Hell that's why they started to Double panel GE finals night in DCI & WGI because the biases that one judge might have are reduced when their score is quartered in the final tally.

There are still strong biases that exist today where no matter what happens on the field you know that this judge will have this corps in first when they judge... 

Edited by Glenn426
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2 hours ago, OldSnareDrummer said:

100% ditto. The possibility of a corps having 2 days of outstanding and at finals laying an egg and still coming out the winner just doesn't seem right. 

 

Here is another POV regarding winning a caption on only final performance.  A corps wins a caption all year, say guard.  At Quarters  the guard wins by .2. Semi's wins again by .2  Finals night, loses guard by .005.  The guard, undefeated up to that point, is not recognized as the best guard because the guard judge that night was not swayed by their performance and thought another guard was just a tiny bit better.  And that judge is thought to have a bias against the previously undefeated guard but always looked favorably on the now Champion guard.  Granted guard is a bit more subjective than  brass and percussion.  But the averaging, in my mind, takes any chance of a bias out.  Well as best as it can.  I am OK with captions being averaged as much as I am OK with the top corps performance of the evening on Saturday winning finals.  

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I predict that a lot of this NOISE will be over after tonight...for a few corps anyway...nahhh...it is just the start of it...it's only June after all...

BUT then certain folks that will say...WAIT til the 1st regional before we know for sure where all the corps stand...oh and those who remind us all to NOT compare previous years scores...and those who remind us to NOT compare different shows on the same night...and don't forget if corps in your supposed TIER are not competing...well the show results will be skewed...did I miss anything?...LOL

 

This season is the resurgence of FULL PANEL judging in June...hooray for at least that...that is about the only thing I can really predict with any certainty...

Edited by Liahona
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