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First things first, a sincere thank you both for your service to our country and for taking the time to communicate. And you'll notice a sincere retraction of my snarkiness from here on out. Your post seemed exceptionally rude and naive to me. But, only because...... I get why you said it, coming on it from such a long run in the activity. And to be frank, I completely agree with your assessment if we're talking about the techniques from the 70's when they didn't have yardlines. I've also heard members of many generations use "Form Marching" in a derogatory, and uneducated way, just as the term "dot diver" has negative implications to a member of that school. The general "My way is better" nature of the thread, combined with my misinterpretation of your actual meaning most certainly set me off a bit. your brief synopsis of that "flip out" moment people have is what I just experienced, but we've all likely been beaten about by it one way or another. Which is why I almost didn't read the thread, because I knew what Howdy was up to....flame bait. For what it's worth, I only came to appreciate the complimentary (and in so many ways identical) aspects of both current schools after marching devils back in '01, and then moving to the Chicagoland area for the next 4 years, where it seemed every time I met anyone who would ask me anything of substance about the Blue Devils experience, it would nearly always end with "How do you get that clean if you don't know your dots?". I had a flashback, and I'm sorry. Luckily those moments often turned into great friendships and working relationships with some of the smartest guys I know, who were unfortunate enough to be Cavaliers....and to have to live with that forever..lol In all honesty though, it taught ME a lot about how they work, and how to put the two together in a way that even they could live with. I consider this a "good to meet ya" opportunity. My name's Michael, played mello for 2 years DCI (99 Gmen, 01 Devils), Auditioned, was accepted, and got all the way to MEPS in Indy, before being DQ'ed from Marine Corps for of all things hearing loss. You lived my dream man. I have been involved now for I guess about half of my 30 years on the planet in some form or fashion. I've only recently become a decent writer, but I love learning the activity, love gettin' dirty in a sincere intellectual disagreement, and am honest enough with myself to know when to say "I'm wrong". I probably shouldn't allow myself to be annoyed by anything so late at night....sorry man. And yes, anything can be charted in pyware, but some specific things wouldn't be because of the "best practices" ambitions most of us (myself included) have. Take for example the backwards floating / morphing ribbon form dissolve in BD '10 that happens right before the mirrors crack, around the mid-point of the production. That moment would only be possible with at "dot-only" technique were you to stop and clean each of the constantly morphing step sizes and direction changes. Yes, similar moments can and have been done with a form only approach, but the demand on the tuba section specifically would require a competent pyware user to write it in a "cleanable" fashion. I'm fairly confident we wouldn't see that moment from a dot-only corps, because changing step sizes and pathways on the move isn't what they do, especially when you use that most kryptonite like term to any Cavalier..."Curved Pathway". I don't say that in a pejorative way because there are other tools which they use more often and much better than any form marcher. But the point is, while anything is possible were you to chart and clean count by count, some things just aren't reasonable under those circumstances, and are therefore charted, learned, taught, and cleaned differently. Learning Jay Murphy drill from Jay Murphy while Jay Murphy writes it on the fly was a truly mind-bending experience. Wish I could have done it more than once. ~Michael

These are both enormously talented corps with deep benches in staff. The proof of this is Cavies loss of Fiedler and Bruno and yet they barely missed a beat. But there's no room for error in design when you get to that dominant level. The only way to keep the momentum of success is to work with design teams that breath each others air and finish each others sentences. Good ideas that aren't great ideas can somehow survive when design teams aren't comfortable with each other, leading to mediocrity or even the "emperor's new clothes" in the extreme. PR 09 might be the poster child for this type of situation. So if you disect the design process, assuming stability of talent, there is a possiblity of a sustained dominance (no matter what the ABBD crowd might desire). I'm not saying BD will continue to dominate indefinately, but they have a groove going on right now and they're an open book of ideas with staff that aren't afraid to say to each other "that ideas sucks and won't work!". A good example of this collaboration is the closer for BD this year when the corps was resolving into that final arch. Meehan added a very brief "laura" reprise (not in the original score) in a way that centered the chaos just for moment, enough to keep the balance and then back out. That was genius and beautifully enhanced Downey's feel. P.S. jwillis35....nice analysis!

I heard that waffles are delicious.

Slight tweak: Learn and Respect History; Enjoy and Revel in the Present; Plan for Great and New Things in the Future.

I have taught many years and for me it's both. You teach and clean to the dots BUT, members must be able to adjust to a form in a performance. There is nothing worse than teaching someone who is married to dots also with the attitude that "I'm right and on my dot and everyone else is wrong " well that may be true but who cares in the long run, the form is wrong looking. No points for the person who hit their dot but many for the group who had the reradable forms.

As someone who marched, I'd be okay with it, if DCI would provide air conditioned facilities for all practices, for all corps. Otherwise, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

If this is enforced, then DCI execs. should move all of their offices outside in 100 degree weather and do their work there.

The Pioneer are proud to announce Mr. Charlie Groh as the head of their visual caption. Charlie has a long, outstanding reputation with the ability to develop state of the art performing organizations. His achievements in the Drum Corps activity make him one of the distinguished leaders not only... ... Read the rest of the article here - http://www.drumcorpsplanet.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7517&Itemid=39

The judges as a whole group over the course of a season..yes. In speaking of what an individual judge might say at a particular show, no. Also no...I would never assume a comment by a cashier at Best Buy is the official POV of the entire Best Buy organization.

do you mean finals night? or week? because the drum scores are averaged from all 3 nights.

Just to keep things on topic, and somewhat related since much of what transpired over the past couple days focused on our visual program.... Charlie Groh to Head Pioneer's Visual Caption

I really like the direction the bluecoats have headed in drums. They are clean, and always entertaining. If there are a lot of veterans returning then it will be a tough group to beat.

From the Cadets Facebook Page: "The Cadets just received another 1:30 of music for the show from Jay ... way ahead of schedule!! great news for the members and the planning team!! Have you checked it out ??? the original that is ??? We have plans .. this is for sure!!! Also ... we will be adding in 2 minutes of music from Angels and Demons !!! Looks... like a good summer for god guys and bad guys ....... Hopkins)" Cadets 2011 new repertoire: Angels and Demons Soundtrack by Hans Zimmer (mostly likely that's what was meant)

Pathetically disgusting, and I'm not talking about anything having to do with the performance of these corps. Sick.

That'll be the 2010 PR snares playing with the 2010 SCV snares. If you look closely you can see the love.

Seriously? You have no class whatsoever and with every post you only confirm that to more and more people. I can show you plenty of examples of form corps that look terrible....but I am not going to because it is not nice. The philosophy of how to teach drill is not important. It is how effective it is taught and how capable the students are of performing it. It is clear that you have something against Pioneer, which if my memory serves is a corps that you taught and were subsequently fired from in your first year. Just let it go.

So far after seven pages we have basically everyone agreeing on two things: 1. That the system you use (form or dot) doesn't matter... it is the teaching that does. If you teach well, either system will work. If you don't, no system will. 2. You don't know what you are talking about and you obviously have an axe to grind against Pioneer.

Not necessarily. You may be working a full time and a weekend job to make ends meet. That to me does not say the economy is good for someone who has to do that who previously was able to get by with just the full time job. There are positive responses such as family (new baby, coaching a kid's team, etc.) that would prevent people from attending DCA. Whoever said you were just choosing to focus on the negatives for this poll was correct.

Good ones! There is nothing wrong for the same corps to win consecutive titles, no matter how long the stretch is. If you're the best, then you're the best. It's up to everyone else to figure out how to beat them. I think this is more because Lee is irked that everybody and their mothers aren't going all ga ga and drooling over his corps like they use to. The novelty of "7" and "Evil" has died and Lee can't handle that.

Jurassic Park Theme, slowed down ... a lot ... like x1000% ... as a ballad. Hard part is picking out which segment of the 54 minute piece to insert. No need to worry about copyright. John Williams himself wouldn't recognize it!

The concept of an "arms race" is so apropos to a discussion of rules changes. Every time there is a rules change, one of the arguments in favor: no one is forcing corps ABC to use X that is now legal. It doesn't matter if we're talking about amps, narration, Bb instruments, number of members, pre-show performances or props. It seems that every rule change turns into an arms race. The top guys are going to do X because they now can and everyone else is going to do X because they feel they need to keep up. Throw in the increasing staff sizes compared to BITD and the ever changing uniforms (2 more forms of the arms race) and you see the same phenomenon. Just like the Cold War, in every arms race, one or more participants will eventually run out of the financial ability to continue.

Answer: Yes, we do. I want to see the best corps crowned champion. I don't want someone else to win just to say that someone else won, because then the best corps would not have won. Frankly, I think you are only looking at one side of this and missing an important factor. There is a LOT of competition in DCA right now. Yes, the top 3 have remained unchanged, but that is hardly the whole story. Look beyond those 3 spots and see the scrapping for position that is going on. Or even more important, look at how the entire field, top to bottom, has improved dramatically in their attempts to take down the boys in blue. Again, consider other things that have happened. The field has gotten stronger than ever and just as I'm sure would be the case if the Steelers did as you say, the Bucs' fan base has grown. Maybe that makes it tougher for everyone else, but they are doing exactly what they should be doing and they SHOULD reap the rewards.

tru dat,...................Lee is pretty good at throwing a hand grtenade into the room, and then leaving never to review the fallout,..............

1. Harmless. Pass it. Why restrict musical creativity? 2. Good ol' common sense. The best place for a soundman is in the audience. 3. I like what Mason is trying to do, and I agree with much of his proposal, but do we really want to give corps' honks even MORE of a reason to stand and scream the entire show? If the audience knows its reaction is going to end up on the score sheet, imagine how skewed scores could become at home shows. Imagine how much more obnoxious staffs could become in the stands. Also, how do you account for the steadily growing audience throughout events, specifically the large World Class events?

Cadets?

It seems you have little to no experience with well educated practitioners of what the modern marching world would more accurately call "Form AWARENESS" which is really not in any way "form marching". When form awareness is crudely and poorly conveyed, it's easy to see how a "Bringer of Truth" such as yourself may be mislead, but your entire post is frought with silly little things that give me an idea that you have never used the technique you so summarily dismiss. 1) Every rep has a different performance. EVERY one, whether you are taking in information about the form, or not. Every rep at the Cavaliers 2002 (probably the best "Dot Marching" performance ever) was different. Form awareness (when utilized properly) is a tool for cleaning transition counts, not a "roadmap to your dot". 2) You seem to be under the errant impression that marching with a sense of form awareness requires more "correcting" than marching the Dot, and I believe you are missing one huge corollary. While "dot" marching, you are taking in information off the ground around you, and constantly making adjustments based on where you know you're supposed to be. Proper utilization of form awareness involves a thorough understanding of the dots, crossing counts, mid-sets, etc. The awareness of form is simply another tool for a skilled performer to check themselves, and except in VERY rare circumstances, the dot takes priority. 3) "Going with what the form gives you" is a good way to get buried, whether you marched in 1980, or 2010 regardless. Even the most "form aware" of the current flock of corps (BD) would rarely use a phrase as blunt or without insight. In times of frustration perhaps, but it would never really be an appropriate thing to say. Evaluate the form and your real location, and make a decision. If it's not a halt, you're never really going to intentionally "miss" your dot. That's just not how it works. While your assertion that Dot-only marching is the "current" technology for marching education seems.....haughty.....I'll commend you for at least admitting here that you've never met any of the greats of this great other world called "form awareness". If you had, it would hurt my soul that you knew them and still had such a narrow concept of the practice. Put simply form awareness is akin to playing in tune. You don't simply press down the first two buttons to play a perfect A. You use the memories of proper practice to tell you what to EXPECT to feel,you evaluate what you DO feel, and you adjust accordingly, and constantly. It's a system that allows one to not only correct a problem in context (Recovery is on the sheets), but to learn when and where continued and or recurring issues may arise, allowing individual members with critical thinking skills to correct issues with direction changes, pathways, et all. Just like we all know that the trumpets must occasionally kick out the 3rd valve slide, and force their ears a little further down the arc, so must we expand our senses if we are to truly be limitless in our visual palette. While the "Dot-Only" school of design offers unique and amazing opportunities, there are definite effects that can not be conceived, charted, taught, or cleaned in that manner. Your awareness of form awareness is now less lacking. Cover down please. ~Michael

Okay...this topic is taking apples and saying "Does this taste like an orange? Could it taste like an orange?!" The answer is clear, yes for both. It was cleaner. Since they had a summer to rehearse a show and get it as close to perfection as possible. The only difference is there are a core group of corps now who are attempting maneuvers that were unthinkable back then (pushing boundaries) where the corps of old were attempting moves that involved 16-5 step sizes. Most vids I've seen of my dad in his old drum lines were them marching up and down the 50 yard line. If you see a drum line marching straight up the field, it's normally when the entire corps is moving a company front. Difficulty now is the game and they're only going to keep pushing the limits of insanity and it's not going to change. We're going to be reading a topic in 10 years "2000 vs 2020" and it's going to be just the same, apples to oranges. Things are constantly changing. People need to get over the fact that they're from their respective era of the activity and just enjoy it for what it is, art on a field built for war!

The only thing that matters is a good staff. Any of the supposed cons of dot or form are attributed to staff or membership not excelling at their job (to put it nicely). Also, a great drill writer understands the teaching philosophies of the vis staff and writes drill to play up their strengths (i.e. the vis designer works in tandem, to an extent, with the Vis Caption Head to make sure the by Finals the drill looks impeccable). But really, dot vs form emphasis is all about personal staff philosophies, and near-perfect drill execution is capable with either technique.

I voted "other" because it often changes and might include corps outside of the top 12. (for example Madison 2007, simply because the opening of that show was awesome.)

Well, when you win a lot there are always similarities. All corps that win have a formula, and, in fact, having a formula is a good thing. Over-using it for too many years is not. It was starting to cost the Cavaliers in 2007, 2008, 2009; and perhaps it will cost BD at some point. The differences that I see between the two corps are: 1. Blue Devils still try to beat you with performance. Plain and simple, they come out with brass, drums, visual execution, and a guard that can take top honors on any given day. 2. The Blue Devils will construct a show that takes advantage of their musical abilities (which are typically higher than most corps), and they will craft a visual program that allows their guard to shine and shows off their impeccable marching. You may not like it, and maybe some years you do like them, but there is NO DOUBT how good they are. Their visual programs always contain a few very demanding moves, but typically they do not abuse demand for the sake of cleanliness or quality. They are very careful in the planning stages with their construction of the music and visual. When you have brass, percussion, and a guard as talented as they do, you don't need cheap tricks or frills to win (despite what people might think of the chairs or the mirrors). 3. The Cavaliers construct a show that utilizes their geometric design ideas to the max, often making sure the music fits the visual ideas being expressed (and vice-versa). They are the best at taking an intro or an extended musical phrase and milking it visually. They can take a simple set of long tones that perhaps end a phrase and they will have 5, 6, even 7 visual ideas that will bring that musical phrase to a visual conclusion. 4. At the same time, The Cavaliers are good about not over-thinking the visual. They will use the flash and surprise that comes from geometric and kaleidoscopic drill by integrating it with music in a way in which the "feeling" is NOT the goal, but the "wow" factor is. Good music can stand on its own. Good music with good drill can be merged and be effective providing one of the two is not asking too much of the viewer. Sometimes a corps asks more of the fan when they program music that is dissonant or overly complex. If you're going to do this you can't counter with drill that is the same, but with drill that excites and heightens the senses without any special meaning put to that drill. This is exactly what the Cavaliers do so well. Lines that flow, boxes that rotate and create more boxes, shapes that double in size, or the sequencing of simple elements (1 person, then 2, then 4, 8, 16, 32, etc.) do NOT ask of anything from the audience, but they excite our senses. 5. Finally, the Cavaliers and Blue Devils both try to tell their stories, convey their ideas, or capture their feelings through the guard and its interaction with the corps proper. Both have had spectacular guards, and DCI judging sheets do reward this quality and integration in a big way. This shows up in the guard score and also in visual and GE. It's a triple whammy when you have a guard that good and integrated that well.

I commented on a forum saying that the music of Lady Gaga and Madonna should be done by a corps, possibly by the Jersey Surf or Teal Sound, and got tons and tons of flack for it. Well guess what, I have credible information (people at the camp this past weekend) that states that the 2011 Jersey Surf are experimenting with "Bad Romance" for the opener and "Kiss from a Rose" by Seal for the ballad. Who is laughing now.

Since this is just a rumor, and we generally don't allow threads of that nature, closing this.

Let me clarify this rumor. As with most rumors, it is unsubstantiated and wildly wrong. The proposal is to have all males rehearse outside in three-piece suits and all females in burkhas. I trust everyone can agree this is a simple and logical solution.

Every corps that I've been associated with already does this, with internal rules and policies. DCI needs to butt out, and let the corps deal with this themselves.

So at this point this is nothing more than a rumor, correct? Isn't there a policy against that on DCP?

Because it's pioneer. They could use any kind of help to get out of perpetual last place.

One had a lot more female members.

the people marching drum corps now were at most 8 years old the last time Madison did Malaguena...Cadets did it in 2003, but they ain't Madison when it comes to Malaguena...

right. so Mikey just killed his own argument. hey Pio...keep working hard. At shows I go to, I'll be inside to see you

Of course Pioneer has the potential to make finals, but... I think your proposal belongs in the fantasy drum corps forum.

Placing more emphesis on dot vs form has resulted in poor transitions. Corps who are teaching their students to just go to their dots and to ignore the forms are creating a lot of problems for themselves visually, and analizing their shows gives us proof.

Wait, I thought the G8 were already working on creating a Monopoly? ... see what I did there?

now, now, now, don't let facts and logic get in the way of a belief

i knew you'd have it!

It would also be a good gauge on how much support there actually is by DCP posters concerning organizations like SDCA and DCNA.

I received the finals dvds in the mail yesterday and have now watched all sixteen corps that performed that night. Background I haven't seen a show live since DCA 2004. I have no idea of what's evolved since then. I see what corps are playing and many times wonder why. I see the scores not knowing if someone got shafted and all that. In other words, I came into the viewing of the video totally blind, not knowing what to expect. And I do know that there is a big difference in seeing and hearing live vs what is on video. General observations 1. What happened to melody matters? Sure, the majority of the corps don't fall into that, just a few. In my mind, hornlines were not created to play nothing but accented eighth notes to highlight flag work. 2. Alliance and Corps Vets coexisting in the same city. I had expressed concern that Atlanta wouldn't be able to sustain two quality corps. Too many times one will succeed at the expense of the other. I was wrong. 3. Was it humid or something that night? There were so many intonation problems in ballads, just wondering why. I thought multi-key was suppose to solve things like that. The corps Buccaneers vs Minnesota Brass. I thought the spread should have been much less..perhaps even reversed. Both had well designed and well performed shows. Although with MBI, I didn't recognize anything until Sherehazad and then Caravan. Good to see Roger Grupp still at it! One thing I was wondering too--is there historical evidence that Roman legions actually goosestepped? Not to my knowledge so just wondering why Bucs put that in, as well as Phantom since the first time they did Spartacus. Aside from that--either of these would have been worthy champions in my opinion. Emprie--most entertaining show. Where else would you see a wicked witch doing rifle work. The combination of all three versions of the story was very well done. Definitely deserved the showmanship award. (but why was Dorothy blond?) Hurcs--well done....much better than the last time I saw them. Well put together, easy to get into show. Kudos! Cabs---looks odd without Jimmy Russo at the helm but life goes on. Typical Cabs..fast, loud and high. Great solo work as always! Kidsgrove Scouts--they may have deserved higher. Well designed show. I expected less coming from Europe and given the history of European corps at DCI, I really didn't expect much. I was pleasantly surprised! Alliance--I thought this show was going to be very morbid. To my surprise it wasn't, in fact, I really got into it! Great drumline!! I would have loved to have the bell ringer's drill! Corps Vets--first loud of the night of the competing corps. Very well done show, powerful hornline throughout. Great job! Bushwackers--interesting show..umm skulls? Decent hornline, good drill. Was that suppose to be a virgin sacrifice??? Just wondering! Renegades--what happened? Yes, the music was good...but what happened to you guys? Is loud no longer good? I was very disappointed at the performance....the concept was there but the performance of it left much to be desired. Sorry guys. Kilties--did they deserve their placement? After watching it and seeing the finalists, yes. A lot of people said it was too old style..and they're right. The music was challenging. The guard was perhaps the best they've had. I don't know-they have a lot of new blood and they are loud--although it was nice to hear actually dynamic differences. Maybe the arrangements were too chopped up....I'm not sure, but I think others are right that it will take a more complex show that's performed well to make it back into finals. This show was performed well and I did enjoy it. Fusion Core-I have never seen them (or Alliance either). I'm not sure what I was expecting...maybe it was more than what I saw based on their score, being the highest score ever in class A. It wasn't exciting but I agree it should have won..was a good performance and congrats! Grenadiers--how they beat both Gold and Govies is beyond me. They're the major example of intonation problems as well as forgetting the concept of melody matters. Their opener sounded like an exercise from a band method book. I didn't recognize anything they played--perhaps actual melodies would have helped and it would have helped without having to cringe at the tuning problems. Carolina Gold--ok--early 90s Minnesota Brass crime fighter shows. Perry Mason theme--check. Shot fired followed by scream--check. Dragnet them--check. After that--no idea what they were playing. Govenaires--typical Govies--great DM as always, nice sounding small hornline, decent drum line, best guard in class A, recognizable music and entertaining to the hilt! Should have been in second easy. Star United--my favorite of the entire night. Wow! These guys can put out some sound! Makes you wonder how a mini-corps can project and sound louder than a full sized corps. Well, they play their butts off and...gasp...they play in tune! Loved them! Overall..very disappointed in some, pleasantly surprised by others and wowed by a few. Only a few who I would watch again. Sorry for being blunt...but why apologize. I just reported on what I saw and heard. Perhaps this would have been written differently had I seen it live.

DCI owns the rights to all media (video, audio) at shows run by DCI. From lot performances and warm-ups to on field performance. The corps' have various licenses with the composers/arrangers that limit how (and often) they can use the music for. DCP has worked hard to improve our relationship with DCI and its member corps, and our policy is in-step with that relationship.

Well guess what? DCP is a privately-owned service that does get to determine the content of our discussions, which is something we all agreed to and accepted when we signed up. I may not like everything about DCP all the time, but the only alternative for you is to create another, separate web site under your own rules (or lack of rules) and offer it to the public. DCP's rules have kept this site from descending into the kind of mass chaos that killed another site many of us migrated from.

Someone uploaded it on facebook but has since taken it down...Hop probably told them to.