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I hate to burst your blue bubble, but this kind of discussion has been happening since the RAMD days online. I know, I know, to you it's all just BD haters, but it's not, and they aren't the only target and haven't been since George Dixon built the place here or many of us went to RAMD before this place

The volume of discussion is certainly related to placement but I think it would still be discussed quite a bit. The issue does not revolve around musical or visual exploration or pushing boundaries. Drum corps is an adjudicated performance activity. I think most of the discussion on here revolves around an apparent disconnect between the criteria as written (where audience communication is a key concept) and the criteria as interpreted by DCI panels. In effect -- many don't understand how a program that "loses" so many in the audience could possibly be construed as having successfully communicated. That's it. Nothing about boundaries. Nothing about avant-garde. Nothing about discouraging exploration. The word accessible is controversial because it's how many viewers chose to express this apparent disconnect. I'm all for edgy, controversial, new, unexplored and avant-garde --- so long as you take the audience with you. Because if you "lose" the audience ( IMO) you've fundamentally failed in your creation. It may have merits outside the boundaries of judged performances -- it may indeed be "art". But (in this activity at least) your first responsibility is to your audience. In my view this is not only the meaning but the purpose of GE captions. It seeks to reward virtuosity, excellence, and artistry *only* when those characteristics are bound in a vehicle which captures and retains the audience's attention throughout production. Clearly there's a wide diversity of opinion at to whether BD'10 captured and retained the audience's attention.

Getting colder....

both is possible. How many people knew Bernstein's Mass in 1983? SCV's show in 99? Crown in 09? I could go on. the list is long. the shows that are legend had it all.

The Skinny on D8N from a Daytonian. . Ah yes. . .Another amazing WGI is almost upon us, and I thought I would again share some inside Dayton info for those of you making the trip this year! Travel (I-75) For those of you who are going to be traveling I-75, you should know that there is construction in both directions. If you are coming North from Cincinnati, there is going to be construction all through Warren County (Warren County is just south of Dayton and is where Touchdown Jesus use to be, he got hit by lightning and burned to the ground this year) For those you coming from Indy/North of Dayton who will be heading south on 75, there is construction all through downtown and up until the exit for the UD arena. *It should be noted and is very important to know that you can NOT exit onto I-35 from 75 if you are heading south. This is the way that MANY people go to get to the Marriott. I repeat, the I-35 ramp from 75 South is closed. You must get off at the Edwin C Moses exit, if you would like to get on 35. For those of you going to the Marriott, this is the exit you would want anyway. Another VERY important side note to those coming from 75 going in the south direction. The Edwin C Moses exit can be very tricky because of the way it is set up to handle the closed 35 traffic. As you are heading down the exit, DO NOT be in the left lane, as it is a continuous loop and will put you back on 75 heading in the north direction so that you can get to 35. Again, the left lane of the exit is a continuous loop and will put you back on 75 (there is a blockade, so if you make this mistake, you’re pretty much hosed) The right lane allows you to turn right onto Edwin C Moses (which you don’t want to do) or allows you stop make a left hand turn onto Edwin C Moses (this is what you want) so that you can get to the arena or the hotel. It should be noted that this also is very tricky because in order to turn left you have to realize that there has been made an ‘open space’ in between 2 construction barrels so that vehicles can turn left. If you are still confused…which I don’t blame you, I made a video today driving south on 75 through downtown and getting off at the Edwin C. Moses Exit. My hope is that this video will help those out-of-towners feel more comfortable with unfamiliar surroundings…and if you have any questions, please don’t hesitate to ask. Video here: Lodging/Restuarants Also, for those near UD/Marriott. . .there are many restaurants on brown st. …and this is probably your best place to grab a bite to eat. You are literally a right hand turn and 3 blocks away if staying at the Marriott. There is a chipotle, panera, burger joints, dewey’s pizza, sub shops and a lot more. The infamous Pine Club is also on Brown st. For those who like local mom and pop type places…check out the brunch club and/or tanks. FYI, for those night owls, Tanks kitchen stays open until 2AM If you are staying north of town (the miller lane area) that is right next to 75…there will be a ton of places to eat, but not much entertainment. This area is very close to the Dayton International Airport. Every hotel chain and chain restaurant can be found on the miller lane strip. South of town (Dayton mall area) You have lots of places to eat and things to do..laser tag, the mall, bowling etc. You also have places like PF Changs and Bravo! Right there by the mall. ..along with every chain you can think of. I recommend First Watch for breakfast/brunch. . it’s wonderful and they only serve breakfast and lunch during those respective hours. For those with a finer palette, check out Anne Kearney’s restaurant: Rue Dumaine. It’s probably one of the best places in the mid-west and well, it’s Anne Kearney! http://www.daytonmall.net/ http://ruedumainerestaurant.com http://www.firstwatch.com East of Town (WSU/WPAFB area) for those unfamiliar: WSU = Wright State University and WPAFB is Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. Over here there is also a ton to do with every imaginable restaurant under the sun. Near the nutter is also the Fairfield Mall, which is a nice place to stroll around and unwind, though quite a few stores have left and moved to the greene. The Greene is an ‘outdoor lifestyle center’ which is just a fancy way to say outside mall. If the weather is nice, this is probably the place to hit….great stores and places to eat: Cheesecake Factory, Flemings, a great Pub and there is also a wine bar. Also some local places…a sushi place, a Mediterranean place (think kabobs) and Mongolian BBQ. There is also a large movie theatre on site as well. For those near UD/Marriott…if you make a left hand turn out of the Marriott and then in a mile or so, another left hand turn on Dorothy Lane. . you’ll run into the Greene, it’s only about 15 minutes away from that area. http://www.thegreene.com/ http://www.mallatfairfieldcommons.com/ Other entertainment. . .well I’d say go explore the National AF museum. . it’s amazing and yes..it’s free!! You can literally spend 3 days in there and not see everything. There is hope that NASA is going to retire one of the space shuttles at this museum in the near future. The Dayton Art Institute is another option and it too is free! Beautiful works and the building is gorgeous as you drive right by it on 75…it sits opposite/to the west of the skyline. I would not venture any further west than the art institute as West Dayton is ‘our rough area’ Let’s not make bones about it. . .everywhere has their bad areas and in Dayton, it’s the Westside. I would say from I-70 south to about the Dayton mall/Miamisburg area you should stay east of 75. It’s a gamble if you want to venture into that area, but it’s your call. For point of reference the Hara Arena is in Western Part of Dayton…and probably the nicer part of the West Dayton area. Also, there is the Dayton Peace Museum which is small, but a great place…and just to our south there is the Cincinnati Premium Outlets that just opened up about 6 months ago. Don’t let the name fool you, it’s closer to Dayton than Cincinnati (since we’re growing into one area anyway) CPO has outlets of Ralph Lauren, BR, Coach, Michael Kors, Gap and other hoity toity designers/brands. For point of reference, CPO is at the same exit you can find Touchdown Jesus. It’s about 20-25 minutes south of downtown Dayton. If you’re staying south in the Dayton mall area, you can probably be there in about 15 minutes or so…given your respective driving abilities. Be warned though, all of warren county has construction going on on I-75. http://www.daytonartinstitute.org/ http://www.nps.gov/daav/index.htm http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/ http://www.daytonpeacemuseum.org/ http://www.premiumoutlets.com/outlets/outlet.asp?id=79 Hotels…just be smart and stay at a chain. Avoid the Westside and the no-tell motels. Rule of thumb, if you don’t recognize the name/chain, chances are.. it’s a gamble. Another gamble are the hotels right by the UD area that site across the highway on the west side. Yes, you can literally see them from the UD parking lot, but there have been lots of issues at those places.. .I think last time I checked they were the econo lodge and la quinta? I’ll double check. The Marriott, courtyard and Holiday Inn Dryden rd. should be fine. ..as are the Doubletree and Crown Plaza that are downtown. Clubs. . .there are a lot of them downtown, specifically in the Oregon District, but let’s face reality, everyone will end up at Masque. All the gay clubs in Dayton are in an area what locals refer to as ‘The Fruit Loop’…thus there are about 5 or 6 clubs that form a semi circle around the main parking area behind masque (the main entrance to masque is also from this parking lot) Straight/mixed clubs are scattered throughout the Oregon, Downtown and The 'Burbs http://oregonartsdistrict.com/index.php?op...ge&Itemid=1 http://www.clubmasque.com/main.php I would also recommend you rent a car while in Dayton…we are after all Midwesterners who live obsessively to drive EVERYWHERE…which is why we have so much sprawl. Taxis are few and far between and there is a regional bus provider (RTA) but riding it would take a lot of planning and ramping up on their bus schedules. So it’s easier just to rent a car. Check the Weather Reports: http://www.weather.com/weather/today/Dayton+OH+45402 The Dayton Daily News, just in case: http://www.daytondailynews.com Things that are unique to Dayton or the Dayton Region: Marion’s Piazza (Dayton style pizza) Dorothy Lane Market, home of the killer brownie, Mike Sells Potato chips, Esther Price candies..the best chocolate ever. Graeter’s Ice Cream, Young’s dairy Farm…and many more I’m sure that I’ve missed. If you have a question or need additional info, feel free to shoot me a PM. http://www.marionspizza.com/ http://www.dorothylane.com/ http://www.estherprice.com/ http://www.graeters.com/ (enter zip code 45402) http://www.youngsdairy.com/ And yes, the local law enforcement has been warned and is on the lookout for Sebastienne St. Jacque and his senior performance ensemble: Convalescence Winterguard.

Would it be inappropriate and unlady-like to say that these "convenience fees" that DCI (and others) charge suck? I bought some $10 tickets to the show in Madison and then I get hit with another $3.50 (35 percent!) per ticket from DCI for some kind of "convenience." I'm not sure what that even means? Yeah, yeah...I know...I didn't have to purchase them, but I did because I'm an old softie. You may ask, "hey Grandma, why are you griping? You got $10 tickets you cheapskate!" To which I reply, "Kiss my wrinkled butt! I spent well over $1,000 last year on a show (premium tickets and travel) that was rained out and had the same thing happen the year before. My new personal drum corps policy is that I'm only going to shows within an hour or two of the home and I'm buying the cheap tickets!"

I’m not sure what it is we’re discussing here. Of course shows that are incomprehensible aren’t good. Isn’t that what we mean when we talk about shows as being not accessible enough or too avant-garde? Successful shows APPEAL to us. Sometimes that appeal is conventional (Cadets ’93). Sometimes that appeal is unconventional (Star ’93). I’d put four of last year’s top five in the avant-garde category. Cadets were the only one of the five who weren’t. Ironically, that rather conventional conception – replete with accessible music and theme – was much maligned around here. BD with perhaps the least accessible music was also seriously criticized. Crown had conventional music (I’m not prepared to say it was accessible) in a design that made it seem more unconventional than it perhaps might have been (compare to Finis in 08, for instance). And Cavies had some very conventional moments offset by other unconventional approaches. Another seeming irony is that Bluecoats unconventional program seemed accessible. And 2010’s top five was in some ways the reverse of 2009. BD, Crown, Cadets, Cavies and SCV all started with conventional themes: 30s tension/release; greener grass and Oz; West Side Story; climbing; and Appalachian Spring. Some weren’t traditional drum corps styles, to be sure. Still, if you remove the chairs and some of the mountain music, you’d be hard-pressed to call these avant-garde. My point is this accessible/avant garde distinction doesn’t really help us outline what we like. We like accessible shows and avant-garde shows. We also don’t like them. We’re Goldilocks. We want it just right, which is fine. HH

I agree that audiences carry expectations into shows. But I don't think audiences are bound by them. I generally dislike shows with any narration at all (because most of the time it's just a crutch to save a bad design) but I've been forced (by the designer and the performer) to occasionally ignore that preference and get carried into a performance. An even better example might be Crown's choice of ballad last season. I think Nimrod is an unimaginative boring piece of music. Those feelings were reinforced by teaching a group who used it for a season (which is enough to make you get tired of any music) . I was *really* disappointed to learn they were playing it. Even hearing the piece performed at a Crown camp did little to get me excited about it. BUT when I saw what they did with the piece on the field...well...I pretty much was blown away. So while I don't completely dismiss the "baggage" argument, I believe that very good design *forces* the viewer to ( at least temporarily) set aside that baggage. I feel much the same way about the ABBD argument. When a show is effective, it will pull even the reluctant into the moment. There may be a small percentage in the audience who actively refuse to get engaged but IMO most of the audience does not fall into that category. IMHO well-designed/well-executed effect transcends baggage.

I've been noticing the same as well. The scholastic A group I work with down in Tampa went on fairly early at every show they competed at, yet they've won every competition and gone undefeated in the performance category. I think it has to do with such a wide panel of judges, as compared to DCI's smaller group of judges who talk to each other.

IMO Accessible = content that keeps the audience's attention without any required prior exposure or interest in it. Plan's definition is a kind of least-common-denominator interpretation. I don't think it describes accessibility at all. Instead it attempts to define accessible as the opposite of creative. That (in my opinion at least) is silly.

Why does it have to be black or white? I'm sure there are probably more audience members out there than you give credit to, that actually do get what it is the corps are trying to convey with the esoteric stuff, but it leaves them stale because there's no connection for them to relate to. Do the mind-bending, artsy, WTF-did-I-just-see stuff. But make me care about it. Make me wanna find out.

If DCI was a private entity like the NFL, MLB, or NASCAR I would certainly favor the better the ranking the higher the payout. However, DCI is legally registered as a 501c3 "charitable" organization. A Major League pays out according to placement; a 501c3 is "supposed" to pay out according to need. Even though DCI has a competitive element, it being a legal 501c3 charitable organization is one reason that I find a problem with calling DCI a true Major League like the aforementioned sports.

Rue Dumaine is wonderful! It's a WGI tradition for me. I always wonder what the people of Dayton think about WGI Championships each year. Last year a guy at Arby's asked me if there was some huge cheerleading competition in town because there were high school girls on school buses all over town. In 2007 (WGI's 30th anniversary), the barista at the Starbucks by Nutter Center asked me if I was here for the porn convention. I asked him what he meant, and he said "You're wearing one of those XXX badges that everybody has on."

a few reasons. far more groups that usually only see each other all in one place at one time.....and even in prelims, they don't all see the same panel. Plus doubling the panels tends to even things out. far less afraid of ties. With that many groups, they happen, even in situations that aren't a round such as a semis or finals show. Very into contest dynamics. having been with a unit at one 2 days ago, what happened at prelims was no guarantee at finals. The rcaps bear that out. GE does not tend to call the show nearly as much as it does in DCI. the percentage of points is still the same ( at least for percussion), But performer seems to be the big difference maker

The beauty of Drum Corps shows... for the last 40 years anyway.... is that in any Top 12 shows, there will be diversity in styles, approaches, music, visual, themes, etc. Some shows will be new and fresh and will " work " for many in the audience, and others will "flop". Some shows will attempt be more accessible and will be" a hit" with many, or they'll be a consensus "flop " with many. In my opinion, there is nothing particularly enobling or satisfying playing something that only a few people enjoy, whether it's attempt is " Avant- Garde " or it's attempt is " Accessible ". The key is to make the performance engaging for most of the people in your audience. That said, I do know that a few designers and arrangers design a show to impress 12 people ( judges ) more than than the paying audience. I respect that, and it's their choice. I simply have no interest however in what 12 judges think of a show performance. I can enjoy both an " Avant- Garde " show as well as an " Accessible " show ( as mentioned above, some can be simultaneously both, ie engaging and interesting. ) It's all in the presentation. It would be a shame if all we had in Drum Corps is one or the other. Fortunately, we've never had that before. Diversity of styles and approaches has been a hallmark of DCA and DCI Drum Corps shows since it's inception.

The three word descriptions are my impressions of each group, in terms of organization, show design and/or overall "vibe." If these descriptions offend you ... good. BD - Cocky, Determined, Refined Cavies - Nerdy, Efficient, Clarity Bluecoats - Fluid, Organized, Tubas Crown -"Left Field," Graceful Cadets - Traditional, Fast, Loopy Phantom - Orchestral, Sonorous, Stubborn SCV - Discontent, Classy, History Blue Stars - Separated, Obsessed, Motion BAC - Proud, Lacking Charm Madison - Murder With Sound Blue Knights - Dancing, Dancing, Dancing Glassmen -Stuck In Limbo Academy -Incremental, Slow Growth Colts - Realistic, Resourceful, Midwestern Troopers - Resurrection, Western, Gung-ho Spirit - Devoted Base, Southern Crossmen - Lost Mojo, Tentative Pacific Crest - Trying To Break Mandarins - Focused, Family, Safe Teal Sound - Electric, Improved, Overkill Jersey Surf - Growing Pains, Elvis (2004) Cascades - Struggling, Changed, Hopeful Pioneer - Stable Yet Unspectacular (Ok, doing this for every World Class corps is super tedious. If the description for your corps is lame, it's probably because I've only seen one of their shows (see Surf, Jersey)).

The "real" Cadets? In my opinion, each and every Cadet that puts on a Cadet uniform, (regardless of what it may look like) sings the corps song and feels the brotherhood of the Cadets is a REAL Cadet. Sorry if the truth hurts but it is not only the ancestors who know what makes a Cadet a Cadet.

I agree with you that Teal's core mission is to try and be an innovator within the activity. I just don't think they do it quite well enough yet to reap the rewards of the inherent "risk." I think they're betting that guitars/basses are the inevitable future of drum corps and it marries well with their rock-driven shows of the past like MeTealica. The only problem is that when BD, Cavies, or Cadets finally do a show centered around distortion guitars or heavy synth they're still going to look like the innovators. Teal will say, "yeah but we did first before it was cool or popular." And everyone else will say, "who cares?" Still, you have to give them credit for carving out their own niche in an area that just recently became legal. A worthy adversary. I just think it's pandering to the untapped American Idol audience for drum corps. The purists think that drum by itself if enough to sell to a general audience. Well, not if we keep cutting music education while the recording industry is barfing up formulaic, saccerin sweet, mediocre, crap. The next thing you know, we'll have 3.5 minute-long shows, LED light-uniforms (like in the superbowl half-time), fireworks, holograms, and monster-trucks will be legal, and music will only be composed of notes from a single pentatonic scale - probably Bb since that's what most of them play in anyways. :) I still don't think they're a band. It seems like you're just trying to be dickish on that one.

Well... nothing really is going to be able to distinguish what "we" like. Obviously, it's not a question meant to solve the eternal question of drum corps audience's tastes. It's more of a discussion in the off-season to determine why I'm right and Plan9 is wrong.

George.....Zingali

i believe one of the responsibilities of world class is to push the activity and move it forward by introducing new ideas and concepts and i don't believe anyone can deny that Onyx is doing just that. Although not everyone's cup of tea, no one can deny the talent they have. I personally have no idea what the show is but you know... maybe it's nothing? Is that a bad thing? Maybe it's simply a mesmerizing show that can be whatever it is that you want. There are many shows that (in my opinion) are boring as all heck... BUT i would never deny them the talent that they have - i'm jealous as ..... that guard is so much more advanced than when i marched many years ago. Best of luck at WGI Onyx! (it wasn't all that long ago that 'guard is becoming too dance oriented' - true statement) moving the activity forward

Anything Scott Dean ever soloed on. Old Sprit, late 70s to mid 80s. Madison Scouts, I'd say any time from 1979-2005 North Star

You can dislike , concept, uniform etc etc , without hating a guard or talent. Show concepts aren't a members choice BUT I'm sure many felt slighted when they were getting all the compliments last year. Its all part of the game and understanding and growing up. It's a competitive thing we do and when you put that lable on it it becomes open game. Everyone IS entitiled to an opinion and as long as it doesn't get nasty a forum or review is Ok and people can and should be able to express....DCP has alot of it. Not everyone will like something or another and remember it's only 5 peoples opinion whos in or out or medals or not. Personally, I think as much as we say it's not just about medals and scores that's not true at all with most, ( which is sad ) 5 people should never decide value or not.

I know a lot of people might not understand the top three shows ... it's just performing art ... I don't get SAC, SCV or ONYX's show .. but they are all very intriguing ... are they entertaining? did they present excellence in equipment? did they move you? was it memorable? I think this year, SCV, SAC & Onyx answer 'yes' to those questions. They are very distinct and stand out from the rest of the crowd. Are they fan-favorites? Not sure... but they will leave a lasting impression. Onyx has some talented members who might read this post and feel disappointed and hurt to read that someone "hates" their show.

I really think that Troopers will be the surprise corps this year. In 2009, they created a smaller corps which managed to pull off a surprising rise to the finals. In 2010 they struggled with a higher level program with a full corps. The challenges of increasing membership and increasing show difficulty will take about two years to really pull off. This means that 2011 will either mean a major rise, ala Madison, or a minor drop until the staff can finally create the perfect show again. I am pulling for a rapid and surprising rise for the corps.

if you "lose" the audience ( IMO) you've fundamentally failed in your creation. Quick story of renowned Composer and Conductor Arthur Fiedler who created the Boston " Pops" Orchestra years ago that might shed some insights on how to " grab " an audience unaccustomed to " Avant Garde " music or unfamiliar music. Fiedler was the Conductor of the Boston Symphony. His audience was primarily the rich, and the old at Symphony Hall in Boston. He decided one day to come up with an idea to reach a wider audience and for the classics to be learned and appreciated by the masses. He didn't try to change THEM. He went to THEM. Fiedler told his musicians that he was going to take them out doors and play free concerts in the Park. And that he'd play more accessible music in these venues. Several of the musicians were appalled with this " change " and quit. He replaced them. He then took the musicians to the masses on the Esplanade ( a half shell that was created in Boston for this purpose ). Only a few hundred people showed up the first year. Fiedler did not quit his mission. His quest was to play 6-8 familiar " Popular " tunes and then play some classics at the end of the performance. Those who did go enjoyed the " popular " music, and so to distinquish the two groups Fiedler called his group that performed outdoors the Boston " Pops " Orchestra ( for " popular " ). After each of the first couple of years of the performances, Fiedler heard and read from people who went and enjoyed hearing the classics and newer 'Avant Garde " pieces that Fielder and his Boston Symphony Orchestra played at the end of these out doors concerts. This was his goal all along. This was his " hook " if you will. He played what they wanted to hear. Initially. He did not insult them. He won them over. And he played what THEY wanted to hear FIRST and then he played later what HE wanted to play for them and hope some of them would find the unfamiliar music engaging and interesting. Today, that " tradition " continues. Upwards of 500,000 people gather each 4th of July in Boston, and millions more around the Globe watch on TV as the Boston " Pops " Orchestra plays " popular " music and then introduces the gathered audience several more innovative " Avant Garde " pieces, and always... always finishes with the now " traditional " Pyotr Tchaikovsky's " 1812 Overture ". Fiedler concept of " Pops " orchestras have since grown throughout the world. If you want to be successful with your music, you don't insult the intelligence of your audience. You use your own creative intelligence to go out and reach them. That was the true " intelligence ", or genius if you will of Arthur Fiedler. He was no elitist. And he had no interest in becoming one.

AWesome!!!!!

I don't recall however that Santa Clara Vanguard was criticized in '89 because their show was too" Accessible" and not " Avant- Garde " enough with the fans or the judges when they won it in '89. I do recall however that lower placing Corps in '89 were criticized for being too far out there in the " Avant- Garde " realm. Corps can win with both " Avant- Garde " shows and with fan " Accessible " shows. They key however today is what the Visual and Guard do. Both have to be Avant Garde in order to score and place well, imo. It doesn't matter much if the music is" accessible" or "avant garde" at all in terms of scores and placements. That said, most ( certainly not all ) fans prefer " Accessible " music over " Avant Garde " music. That's just the national human condition, and of no real surprise. But the top 12 Corps in either World Class or Open Class offer both " Accessible " shows and " Avant- Garde " shows, so everybody should be happy with this, it seems to me.

I think the best shows achieve a balance of both. They should challenge your thinking without leaving you alienated. That is my personal definition of good art, drum corps or otherwise. However, it doesn't mean that shows that are on either end of the spectrum are bad either.

You're probably right about it being a non-issue if BD wasn't winning. And I know there's satire involved, but since it was coming from you, I chose to ignore it. And I don't think the main gripe (at least for me) is that corps are exploring the musical and visual boundaries. I think it stems from (broken record, I know) the lack of a connection. It's a fine line to walk more often than not, and I applaud those that at least try. But drum corps is a pretty niche activity. Going to far in either direction without making people care or placating them too much just deepens that niche, IMO.

Keeping it simple, to describe all the World Class Corps, they're all like........ " bathing in chocolate. "

And in the aftermath came a beautiful Sunrise.

I've always said that people from Dayton are the nicest people in the world. This thoughtful post reinforces my theory, yet again. Thank you so much for gathering and posting all of this helpful information...!!! And the details of the I-75 construction are GREATLY appreciated. Whether traveling to Dayton by car, bus or plane, nearly everyone attending WGI will drive on I-75 at some point during their stay. This info should help drivers avoid as many of the construction 'surprises' as possible. Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU...!!!

then I guess it was far worse live. Hands down the most abusive of any corps I have seen yet, and I saw them 4 times that summer...the other 3 weren't even close.

no kidding. I've kinda been saying that for 7 years now I think some of it is equipment and some of it is staffing. I have seen many people on here, with far more knowledge than me say the stuff being used isn't exactly top shelf. and I'll add a 3rd variable. Judging community. They seem to reward it, not make a statement when it's not done well regardless of staff or equipment issues

I would agree with that. Part of the reason I put it out there for folks to define what these are to them. You're my new DCP thesaurus. :) "Accessible" has been argued as a "dumbing down" or "pandering" to some degree, and while I can see where that comes from, I disagree. Accessible certainly can be the "known" or "familiar", but I look at it more as to whether or not an audience member can make a connection of some sort, on some level with what's being put on the field. "Avant-garde" (or "esoteric") has been argued as "too cerebral" and "head-scratching" and folks complain that they don't want to have to watch a show 1,000 times to get it. I personally don't mind being challenged by any art form. But I think drum corps CAN be both, and think they should strive to do so. It's finding that balance between the two that's the trick. Weird, artsy stuff for the sake of being weird and artsy is meaningless if the audience can't relate to it in some fashion. On the flip side, playing familiar stuff gets a bad wrap at times because that's probably the easiest and most sure fire way to make that connection and get a reaction. I think corps like BD and SCV have most recently been leading the charge on the one end of the spectrum, while corps like the Cadets and Crown have taken the other. It's interesting to see other corps (Bluecoats, Cavies, and Blue Stars) begin to explore that middle ground. I think 2011 will be a pretty kick butt year. :)

More ensembles, more turnover, more diverse products.

To be fair, the Copland was in the middle of the 2007 show, and it was the entire piece (not a snippet).

I have good memories of the 1974 Key to the Sea show.... the junior corps I was with made Class A finals, and then we watched a great Open Class finals show, with the Madison Scouts, Anaheim Kingsmen, Blue Devils and a whole bunch of other terrific corps.

I voted avant garde. Cadets 2002 is considered one of the most "accessible" shows put on the field of the past ten years, but I found it cheaply pandering and overtly saccharine (and, with the exception of "Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy", boring as heck). I'd rather watch dozens of shows like Glassmen 1999, Vanguard 2010 (etc.) before another show like that.

I think BOTH can be done. I was going to start a "New" Post, about "Theme Shows". But I think it would fit in here. (It is a bit of History and Opinion, on Then and Now.) The FIRST real "Theme Show", was done by the "Yankee Rebels SENIOR Drum and Bugle Corps of Baltimore, MD.Believe it or not it was done in " 1969 ". Called "Requiem for an ERA". I will never forget it. The first time I saw it at Roosevelt Stadium, in Jersey City, NJ.First thing after the Honor Guard came on the field was about 10 "Flash Flags"(as many of us called them). They wore Confederate Soldier Army uniforms and carried 10 what looked like Confederate flags (with no Stars). There was a bunch of Booing. Then came 10 more flags. They were "Navy Jacks" (a full Blue field with 50 Stars. No Stripes. Used by the navy on the Bow, when a ship is in port) dressed in Union Army uniforms. So a bunch of cheering started. Then the main body of the Corps came out, in the usual White, with Orange trimmings. The show started with "Dixie". which again brought out the Boo Birds (But not for long) Then "Waiting For The Robert E. Lee" - "I'm Alabama Bound" - Alexander's Rag Time Band" - "Am I Blue" - "Birth of the Blues - "Camptown Races" - "Requiem For An ERA" - "When Johnny Comes Marching Home" - Battle Hymn of the Republic". When they were done I think all of the about 20,000 fans were on there feet going NUTS. Black, White, Young and Old.I thought WOW that was Great. But, I wonder how it is going to go over at Legion Nationals in ATLANTA,GEORGIA. Well, I got my answer in Georgia Tech Stadium. It was just as Big as in New Jersey. So, "Theme Shows" are Not NEW. Some other favorite's of mine were Santa Clara Vanguard's "Phantom of the Opera" Wow what a show, and "Fiddler On The Roof". Then even more Modern. Cavaliers "Machine", as just some of what can be done, and still Win both, Judges and Crowd. What is NEW, is the writers, of today RE Write the music so much now you can hardly tell what they are playing. Whether it be Classical, Pop, Broadway or Original.

The symphony orchestra.

Or perhaps you want to hear more of the pits than some other people. As a horn person from the pre-pit days I hear more of (DCA unamped) pits than I want to hear. But I'll admit a lot of that is personal preference.

Young Whipper Snappers

How about some early to mid '80s Spirit of Atlanta? Hunter Moss was a beast!!

Madison 1974-2001. BD 75-96. others mentioned above

Winning

It would be nice to know what this below the line fee is really for. Perhaps they should just bundle that into the purchase price? Don't worry, this is happening in everything from Cable bills and cellphone to your local water bill. It's a way to charge more while still acting like you're giving value.

A brief continuation and commentary, for what it's worth. First, regarding Teal Sound last year: The corps on the field played well. Maybe even well enough to be 18th. (Maybe not.) The electronics and "non-traditional" instruments sat squarely on TOP of the ensemble sound, and were a distraction. Good performance but poor balance/blend, and questionable choices on tone distortion, with a sound system that was "okay" will always result in "that's kinda cool, but I'm not stepping out of my comfort zone with scoring as a judge". It has to be done professionally. While electronics may be relatively new to drum corps, they are not new to anyone's ears. We know when it sounds good, and when it does not. We've been listening to a blend of acoustic and electronic music literally since the day we were born. A friend of mine reminded me of something Don Angelica once said: "Just because we borrow from all the other performing arts doesn't mean we do any of them particularly well." To that end, Teal Sound is working on a more professional-sounding blend of electronic, acoustic and non-traditional instrumentation. The last couple of years can be considered an experiment, with lesson learned, and new directions implied. It's not that judges don't have "guts". . . I have a great many friends in the judging community, and that is not something a single individual lacks, when you have to make decisions every single night of the summer. The corps have to be willing to hear and see things, and then figure out why a particular judge may have said something. It's detective work, which requires an honest, open self-evaluation sans ego. Secondly, regarding the judging of individual performance on non-traditional instruments in drum corps: It is my understanding that at this time, the same judge who evaluates the pit (field percussion) is responsible for evaluating individual achievement from non-traditional instruments. A synth is not so different from any other keyboard instrument, except in this way. There cannot be an evaluation of technique; only the criteria "does it sound good". For some that may be too vague. But consider this. Any technique is valid. What we do in drum corps is try to align techniques of individuals when they are playing in a section of other like-instruments (e.g. snare line, baritone line, etc.) But how many synths do you compare for matched technical achievement? For some, this will not be an adequate answer. I get it. So. . . Here's the very real, plain and simple truth. The ability to judge the latest technological and instrumental changes is not fully realized yet. Training and discussions happen. A parallel from worlds we've already been to in our past: in 1980, Santa Clara Vanguard came out with ground-breaking drill, which didn't fit the vocabulary of the judging sheets at the time. They were writing and performing outside the box. It took a few years for the system to catch up, which began with the introduction of achievement build-up captions in some areas (not all) in 1984. Another parallel: Dance. Lots of corps are credited with introducing elements of dance as far back as the 50's from what I can tell. In the DCI era, Santa Clara doing the Bottle Dance, the Bridgemen giving us a little "street" dance, Blue Devils with their sleek body work and feather dances from 1981 - 1984, Madison Scouts giving us the masculine interpretation of Gene Kelly and Broadway type foot-work while spinning rifles, and finally the highlight of the 80's Dance movement, Spirit of Atlanta, who had begun to work on dance probably as early as 1980 during "Sweet Georgia Brown", but defined Dance as a legitimate form of expression in drum corps. From there it steam-rolled. . . Phantom Regiment's work with ballet in the late 80's, solo dancers (again with ballet) in Garfield Cadet's 1987 "Appalachian Spring Suite", Dutch Boy's Vegas Dancers. . . even the goofy, fun version of African Break Dancing by the Velvet Knights in 1988 and the 1995 Madison Scouts in "Malaga" with the bull-fighter dance. Should I mention how similar the Phantom Regiment's halt position is to Ballet's 4th position? (Pardon the longest run-on sentence with no conclusion in recent memory.) The point I will make with this is that the vocabulary and training of the judging system, the judges themselves were not ready to properly evaluate what they were being presented with. We tried. Didn't work. So, redesign the sheets, train the judges in vocabulary, teach them to recognize achievement. It takes time. Same with non-traditional instruments today. An important thing to know, is that a guitar player gets no more or less credit than any other individual from a field music standpoint. And for those corps that choose to highlight guitars, etc., it is no different that evaluating a show that is built around a great soloist. Pacing, exposure, expression, variety, etc., are all factors. It is not enough to simply show up and plug something in. Anyway, I'm sure this has wandered long enough. Sufficed to say that drum corps evaluation evolves, just as the drum corps performances do. They will always be a step behind, because it takes time to learn something new. All for now -- gotta get back to actually working. best, Chuck Naffier

Any time I see posts in these threads about the benefits of amplification because now the pit can play with "correct concert technique", I have to scratch my head a little. Is anyone under the illusion that anyone else in the corps is playing with "correct concert technique"? When the horns are playing at triple-blastissimo, when I'm watching the snare drummers start a stroke with the butt-end of the stick two inches above the brim of their shakos--none of that smacks of "correct concert technique" to me. That doesn't bother me, though, as I'm not watching an indoor concert, I'm watching an outdoor marching ensemble. I would expect the technique to be different, the equipment to be different, darn near everything to be different, because the venue and the activity are different. Does anyone think that a modern marching snare has anywhere near the sound quality of a good concert snare? To me they sound atrocious--on their own--but perfectly suited to the situation they were designed for. I guess I never minded the "bang away" pits from back in the day, just like I never minded loud, occasionally raucous hornlines or stick-above-your-head drumline closers--I assumed those things were done for the purpose of producing an effective, outdoor, fill-up-the-stadium sound called drum and bugle corps.