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I don't think anyone (at least not myself) is being "anti Renegade". But, you have to admit that their wound has been mostly self inflicted. You can't go getting yourselves kicked out of your only competitive circuit and expect the results to be positive. And there were never any apologies or even so much as a hint of contrition on their part. I certainly do hope they are able to work their way back, but realizing where they went wrong and doing something to correct it, will be a necessary first step.

I dunno,............his negative rating seems kinda low,...........it is ironic that he is organizing and teaching a marching bad for kids, while coming here and being as politely nasty and insulting as he can be,.........I hope he doesn't get out in front of the kids using the same demeanor,..........

Or passing his opinions as facts to people who would not know any better.

pearlsnaredrummer, Well-stated. The bottom line IS more people choosing to purchase this product over all the other options available in today's world. Many effective and satisfying alternatives that can be enjoyed from the comfort of home! Of course, there's our current economy to contend with. We can't do much to control that. We can, however, control the desirability of our product. Changes are needed. As for sponsors? Well, sponsors want to associate themselves with whatever is "hot" to the biggest amount of consumers. That usually means viewers and purchasers, NUMBERS, if you will. One such change would be a pay-per-view Finals option. I'd buy that, for sure. My curiosity will always be strong, even if current programming is lacking to me. I've scaled back how much time and effort I expend to view drum corps in person. Some of that is the aging process, for sure.

A few (bold) predictions: - Blue Stars, Crossmen, and Troopers all place in Top 12. - Scouts make a push to top 5 - SCV medals

Illustrative of what, "Nana, Nana, Boo, Boo, I Red Tag You"? These green/red things are only illustrative of a type of middle school popularity contest and only relevant in that context; many times a great and wonderfully thought out post receives red negatives, and ramblings with no supportive basis whatsoever gets greened. Sort of reminds me of the way Sally Field accepted her Oscar with the statement, "You Like Me, You Really Like Me!". That is why I do not engage in the game, and I actually make fun of it in my tag line.

The real question is why would one of the moderators take it upon themselves to modify his account like that. I mean he's controversial and usually so far off base it's not even funny but still - why?

I have to admit that for awhile I thought you were serious until you posted those rejects from the "Dr. Who" Christmas special.

Yes, you are right. But I didn't say it was. Read what I wrote. But I shouldn't actually post while in my hospital bed. Somehow I always leave out something. I guess tension and anxiety is supposed to be part of the suspense as we await the unveiling. It won't be as powerful if they don't master the show behind it. Last year could have been so good...

But here is what the Blue Stars are saying today, after April Fool's, really is a primary sketch for their new uni. Rumor from a well placed source within their admin is that their CEO at last camp dissed the traditional Blue Stars pith helmet as unworkable for today's drill. (???) I find most of the sketches here very busy, too much built on BD, and prone to distracting the drill rather than masking ticks. Unfortunately few uniform designers have actually written drill for real people or taught drill on the top 12 level. http://www.bluestars.org/story.php?story_id=685

San Francisco Renegades April 5, 2013 Renegades Updated Summer Schedule "Obstacles don't have to stop you. If you run into a wall, don't turn around and give up. Figure out how to climb it, go through it, or work around it." ~ Michael Jordan ~ It's no secret that times are tough for just about everyone. We're all working to make the best life we can with what we have, and that often doesn't leave much for extra-curricular activities. Whether its time, money, or both, sometimes we lose track of the things we love. The Renegades are experiencing these hard times, as are other corps around the country, and the amount of people able to attend rehearsals has not been what we need to put out a corps at the level that our fans expect from the Renegades. Basically, without a full corps (or close to it), we do not have the money coming in to pay for facilities, staff and show. But no one wants the corps to fold or to stop performing. If we cut the 4 DCI shows, it is possible to put on performances with less rehearsals and a volunteer staff (or close to it). Dues are being reduced, the cost for the 2013 season will be announced at next camp. As a result, the Renegades' Board of Directors has made the difficult decision to not put a corps on the competition field for the summer of 2013. This, however, does not mean that the corps is folding. Repeat: THE RENEGADES ARE NOT FOLDING! What we ARE doing is planning a summer of standstill and parade performances; Renepalooza on May 19th; the Fourth of July parade in Fremont (where we are always Rock Stars); and the Renegades Reunion at Loudest Show on Earth on July 7th. (Yes, 7/7 !) Throughout this Spring and Summer, we will also be pursuing and participating in corporate and sports venue-related performances, such as playing for IBM and for the San Francisco Bulls pro hockey team.And as the grand finale, our WORLD TOUR in Las Vegas the first weekend of August! Musically, we will keep the Opener, Don't Let the Sun Go Down on Me, In the Stone and Open Up Wide. We may add or subtract as time goes on. Camp schedule will be as follows: April 20, May 18/19 , July 6/7, July 27/28. The drum staff may run a camp in late April or early May due to WGI conflicts. We will let you know ASAP. Look at it this way - you will own the most exclusive member patch since 1999! Our focus will be on getting as many people as possible to join us in building the Renegades for the future. Recruit performers, volunteers, and alumni - anyone you think can help! "The difference between stumbling blocks and stepping-stones is how you use them." We will also be developing a multi-year plan that will allow us to build a solid financial base and recruit for the future. We encourage everyone reading this message to step up and be part of the team working to strengthen one of the most entertaining and unique performing groups so that they can continue entertaining the world for many years to come. Thank you for your support for the corps, and please do what you can to help us through these changing times. Sincerely, Chris Nalls and the Board of Directors, San Francisco Renegades

For Immediate Release Greensboro, NC Carolina Gold Drum & Bugle Corps Declares DCA Open Class Status. After winning the DCA World Championship in Class A in 2012, the Carolina Gold Drum & Bugle Corps of Greensboro, North Carolina formally announces that it will return to DCA OPEN CLASS competition in 2013. Carolina Gold will present its 2013 field show entitled "Mission: Accepted", a new take on the traditional secret agent theme featuring original compositions written by Rob Stein, Sean Combes, and Justin Mabry. Drill design by Charles Patton and Color Guard design by Drew Zellmer. Visual Caption Head, Jordan Webb, along with Color Guard Caption Heads, Tracy Smith and Drew Zellmer return to the corps for 2013. New staff additions for the upcoming season include Tarvick Linder as Brass Caption Head and Tracy Wiggins as Percussion Caption Head. The Corps last performed in DCA open class competition in 2006, its second consecutive year as a DCA Open Class Finalist. 2013 marks the tenth anniversary of Carolina Gold's first appearance in DCA Open Class. Carolina Gold has recently competed in DCA Class A from 2008 to 2012, appearing in DCA Championship Finals competition four of the last five years. The Carolina Gold Drum & Bugle Corps will begin their competitive season at the DCA sanctioned "Sound of the South" competition hosted by the Shenandoah Sound Drum and Bugle Corps in Nokesville, VA on July 6th.

Even INT.

Listen to a recording of El Cumbanchero made at Music City's recent March camp by clicking HERE. The corps will also perform Rapsodia Cubana and A mis Abuelos this summer. There is one opening on tuba. At the upcoming camp on April 26-28 the corps hopes to add additional guard members to the 35 already offered contracts. Anyone interested in auditioning for the corps may submit an application at www.MusicCityDrumCorps.org. Spring-like weather at Music City's March camp allowed brass and battery to hit the drill field.

Here's one that might somehow tie back into the thread... Mine was a 1980 Honda Prelude... which I got the week before I turned 16. Drove it out California to audition for SCV, but still didn't have a license, only a permit (16th birthday was in the middle of camp)... so, took turns driving with my mother. On the way back my mother was trying to sleep, but apparently had a very uncomfortable bra... so took it off (through that weird David Copperfield #### that women do... pulling it out the sleeve) and threw it in the glove box. The next day after I was back, I got my license and then went to take my girlfriend out for a drive. She started to get nosy and opened the glove box and found this bra. Either way... it was a losing situation... as it would be far too weird to say it belonged to my mother. She freaked out... thinking that I was with some other girl. So, turned 16, got a new car, got cut from SCV, broke up with a girlfriend... all in a matter of a 3 days. :)

Since you feel insulted that I make fun of such a childish form of evaluating other postings, then my rationale for making fun of the green goo vs. the red threats is more than likely rather accurate.

I'm back......after a couple years away. I'm really excited for this year's Scouts show. Can't beat the musical choices. Hopefully back to the top six! GO SCOUTS!!!-ACN

Your rationale is insulting to all of us because it suggests that people simply say stuff to get ratings. I'm not that shallow that I need the emotional support of a bunch of anonymous people, most of whom I've never met. I'm sure some are that shallow, but I doubt you'll find of that type of personality here. It could just simply be a way to agree or disagree with the message of the post. If it's written poorly and Mike Boo reds it, so be it, but that's hardly a popularity contest.

I've got to stand up for Nana Boo, because she was never into popularity contests. Hey...I'm just trying to play along with the part about rambling...and helping to prove your point.

Absolutely. I remember watching BD for years on tour and noting how level headed and professional their staff was, always. They also had the cream of the crop in member talent which I'm sure helped keep things a little more sane. But, it seems to be part of the culture. I once quit a staff because one of the instructors kept going off on members like a marine corps drill sergeant and the kids were really quite young and it was just totally inappropriate. I asked the BOD and the director to do something about it and when they wouldn't, I made it clear that it was "he goes or I go." I went. It still goes on today. I was watching a fairly prominent corps rehearse a few years ago and the staff was so condescending that I just had to leave. The corps director is a great friend I've known for 30+ years and I was shocked to see that he let that go on. It just made me sick to think that kids were spending thousands of dollars to be abused in that way. Every one of those kids was putting out everything they had and the staff treated them like meat. It's no wonder some corps can never quite get over the hump competitively. They would all do well to watch a BD rehearsal and learn how it's done.

I'll spill one bean after watching lots of guards on fn tonight. Claudia Taylor Johnson with Songs My Mother Taught Me was sweet : )

I see the complaining never stops on this site. Anyway, I live in the Chestnut Hill area of Philly (for one more year and then I'm getting stationed elsewhere) and I'm pretty excited and can't wait, no matter how much it costs.

... and how revealing will you be???? 8 x 10 glossies please ...

Give it up Dave.

There isn't enough money in drum corps ticket sales and media purchases to sustain drum corps. You either cut spending (which will kill it.. as there is no distinction between local marching bands) or you look for other sources of revenue. To do this, you hire the best of the best out there in the events business. Hired guns who know how to make money... not people who know drum corps... and get them running all kinds of events, including drum corps events. Again, there is no need to mix any of this with drum corps... it is just the #### that pays for it. You buy another bucket.... you still have only one well. You need to dig more, explore more... diversify.

"I will concede that one aspect of blue devils design is that breaks between movements are somewhat rare and only happen once or twice so they all sort of blend together and they generally don't leave room for clapping. Even in California the brass stabs between the end of Laura and the trumpet solo were met with silence in 2010, but that doesn't mean the Laura balled sucked or made no sense or wasn't entertaining, it just wasn't a "resolving chooooord, band horns down, woooooo!" moment where everyone knew and felt that here is when you clap. That usually doesn't happen in BD shows like it would in, say, Crown or Cadets shows. To me, that doesn't mean they're not entertaining. And I would say one would be backing themselves into a very narrow corner to define entertainment (objectively) by resolving chords and opportunities to go nuts, or crowd reaction for that matter (subjectively there's so much more)." Just speaking to the 2010 show, I have to remark that I'm certainly a Blue Devils fan (and more so a DCI fan in general--we had Phantom's 1989 New World arrangement played by a brass group at my father's funeral last year). Here's the thing: during the 2010 show in Sioux Falls where I live, the Blue Devils got more gasps than I ever heard around me at a live show, even more than I remember watching Star Of Indiana in Jackson at the 1993 finals. It was even different from the visceral response I remember clearly from seeing Santa Clara in 1989. To my surprise, my mother, who is a devout Norwegian Lutheran and doesn't care much for jazz (she dismissed the 1991 BD show I loved so much at the time as "I'm going to need more major chords" when we saw them together at a couple shows in Minnesota that summer) said she can't remember seeing a corps perform that well. And at several points it was just gasps from the audience, more of a "How did they do that?" response rather than some sort of automatic applause moment. Different strokes for different folks, I guess, but I remember those gasps much more clearly than any of the applause moments of any shows I saw that summer... At some point, performance excellence is an important thing. Especially for judges, of course, but even for some of the crowd. Maybe they need to yell louder or tweet something about throwing babies, but their responses to the show are part of the equation too.

Good luck to the Renegades.

...and this is the reason I didnt support the uniform campaign. There were clearly more important things that needed to be addressed. Glad to see the corps is doing the right thing to get some interest up. Best of luck and hope to see you back in 2014.

Did you read this all the way thru... It states: " developing a multi-year plan that will allow us to build a solid financial base and recruit for the future"

Yes. More Bieber, less Barber. The problem isn't the source material, it's the WGI mashup approach to the music itself. Make the music effect scores dependent on basic principles of good composition rather than moment to moment effect, and you make it less likely to see 3 different pieces hacked and pasted into one 3 minute arrangement.

Except they were 1st in both Music Effect and Ensemble Music, and 2nd in percussion, and 2nd in visual performance.

Ok, but how many of us have seen symphonic concerts where the timpanist and bass and snare drummers counted out 567 measures of rest? (If i remember correctly, the pit was quite active during that whole segment, so it's not like the entire percussion section was tacit). I have to say that if the choice is the Cavaliers battery being quiet during a section of music where their contribution wouldn't help, or the old school 1960s style of writing where the drum line is playing 6/8 march rhythms during romantic ballads, I'll take the former. It's better music making. The only other option would be to say that nothing could be played unless battery percussion would be appropriate, which would limit the overall range of styles.

OK, though I find it sad. I like the traditional Blue Stars hat as distinctive, although the side plume may be a problem for today's drill. However, both Bluecoats and Phantom wear helmets rather than shakos and this doesn't seem to hurt their visual presentations. The Blue Stars' visual problems the last few years had more to do with feet, not hats. But you are the CEO, and you certainly have done many fine things to maintain a great organization. Good luck with your DCI BOD meeting. Have a great 2013 summer. NDP

I would be happy if the uniform was at least blue. The Gray never worked.

One might think that a successful drill writer would give a corps drill that matches their show concept much closer than the Blue Stars were given last year. For a nautical show it sure did have a lot of geometric forms and rotating boxes! You are correct there is only one Myron Rosander and I love what he did with SCV, especially 1999, but his drill for the Blue Stars last year was not good.

Another update...as of 4-2-13 @ 10pm...75 brass and 34 percussion. (15 mellophones).

Absolutely agree. Not too many years ago, a number of those corps would be solid finalists. The quality level at that tier has improved by leaps and bounds.

I totally agree with this, I did that in 2011, and I was completely surprised at how the season turned out for them (in a good way). I know a guy in the front ensemble, sounds like it's going to be a great year for them.

The only one that actually got me today! Bravo!

If there is one thing I've learned in this activity over the past couple of years, it is: absolutely, positively do not count out the Boston Crusaders.

Agree with everything about Tarpon. They definitely stepped it up this year and would probably be in 4th if they went to champs. I notice the overkill with narration in the marching shows as well.

Stu, DCI should not have anything in common with Little League. DCI is comprised of the best in the world at a particular activity. What confuses the brand is that there are also groups with an educational mission lumped in with the same brand. These two segments have a different focus and though what they do is technically similar, it is not the same. I do feel that corps with an educational mission should be more strongly supported, but DCI is not the best vehicle for this.

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There are a lot of topics intermingled with this thread ... and all topics are valuable. Maybe this should be broken into a number of threads: 1) The Business of DCI: (IMHO) The "business of DCI" is to 1) Put Butts in Seats. Period. DCI is not "about the kids". It is (or should be) about marketing its product: Drum & Bugle Corps: 1) Advertising the product; 2) Contracting venues to present the product; 3) Sell the product; 4) Make sure the product sold is worth the price of admission. There is a "secondary business" of DCI, and that's the rules side, so that competing corps can compete fairly. There are a number of people who think DCI is a 'non-profit' business, and should have that "mindset". But, unfortunately most non-profits are run poorly. There are some (like me) who think it should be professionally run like the multi-million dollar organization it is (or should be ... check out 'Hughes Aircraft' ... the largest non-profit corporation that ever existed. They made airplanes, space capsules, rockets, etc., but were still non-profit). Governance is the main issue (IMHO) of DCI, as the BOD should be composed of individuals who are 1) Not connected directly with any single corps; 2) Passionate about the activity; and 3) experts in their business area (i.e., marketing, finance, legal, technology, business, etc.), and not individual Directors who are "interested parties" (which I think is the legal term). 2) The Business of Individual Drum Corps: The "business of each corps" is what each corps Board of Directors wants it to be! It could be the "business of excellence". It could be the "business of training youth". It could be both! It is NOT up to DCI to figure out what each corps wants / should be. However, if that business/corps wants to compete with other DCI corps, then it would probably go along with the standards that (should be) / are set by DCI. This is a big issue, since there are drum corps which are successfully running their business (which directly benefits the "kids"), and most corps which can barely brake even, or are loosing money (which, in the long run "hurts the kids"). This, is what most people think is the basic division of the G7, and they are correct! There are extremely successful businesses/corps, which can afford to put out a superior product ... just as with any other activity (car racing, etc.). Some businesses/corps are not as developed, and should be marketed / judged differently, and probably more than just the 2 "levels" we have now (world class, open class). 3) The Business of Show Sponsors: There are many show sponsors out there: a) individual drum corps; b) independent organizations; 3) DCI. Running a show is way different than running a drum corps, or running a marketing organization. This is not usually a "hot topic", but if DCI / G7 starts to market differently, you can bet there will be show sponsors who want to make some money, and will want to pay the top corps to be at their shows. It seems to me like a lot of people in this thread (and previous threads) are p*ssed off because many are threatened by the G7 wanting to do business differently than the "bottom 7", or the "middle 7" (Given that there are, unfortunately, about 21 World Class corps, these are, IMHO, fair divisions). And these differences deal really with issues such as marketing, sustainability, and a viable touring model, that is both good for DCI, good for all the corps. I think that the "B(ottom)7" and the "M(iddle)7 should be screaming as much, if not louder, as the "G7", because they are forced into a nationwide touring model that is too costly for them, forcing them out of business. IMHO! :tongue:/>

If you don't get that $100k is a simply a rounding error on $10M ... we certainly do have a bit of a gap. $100k is not real money (less than what DCI spends on unnecessary printing). The FIRST purpose of DCI is to remain in business. In order to assue that, they need cash on hand, just in case. Those mentioning being able to hang on to $100k or even $300k as being a success... it is possible that an unplanned change in vendor or shift in market price of essential goods/services could put DCI well in the red when riding the margins that close. If the corps need more money and DCI exists to provide for the corps... DCI needs to go out and make/find more money... while at the same time keeping more in reserve. DCI could be making considerably more money than it currently is. It's like their milking the cow from only one teat. Let's put it like this... Let's say you make $100,000... and at the end of the year, after all your bills are paid, you have only $1,000. If any prices go up, or god forbid you have some sort of unplanned emergency over the next year... you're ####ed. DCI is in the same position here... $100k is nothing... and in recent years, they have been in the red. You can't run a sustainable business like this.

No. I was requested to do this. I can't say that I'm on Dan's Christmas card list these days. I think the last project I worked directly with Dan on was a project "Crazy Dan's DCI Basement Blowout". :-)

So, do we officially have the TOC/G7 stuff out of the way for another year? Has everyone figured out that this will be yet another season where the top 7 or 8 are the same, with a huge dip in quality down to the next tier?

Part of the problem is that there are two basic problems that end up getting conflated. 1. Increase bodies in the stands 2. More participants & corps & shows Unfortunately there are many other smaller, but interrelated problems such as budget concerns, participation costs, appeal of product, marketing, etc. At this point, however, I think the critical issue is more bodies in the stands. I think this requires a serious review of the products appeal to non-fanatics or alumni seeing as how there will be far less alumni in the very near future. The activity cannot continue to become more insular, emphasizing obscure classical or symphonic pieces with little melody or groove. Only the true believers like that and those folks are killing the activity.

But, according to the release, they ARE going on a "WORLD TOUR". Of course (in smaller print) they mentioned that the "WORLD TOUR" will be in Las Vegas! They probably are considering Paris Las Vegas a foreign country. And imagine, all this excitement partly because some grown ups just couldn't resist the urge to trash a hotel. Viva Las Vegas!!

Silly goose! If you read the release carefully, you would see (in bold print), THE RENEGADES ARE NOT FOLDING! They may not have facilities, staff or a show...well, they do have a "volunteer staff" (or close to it)...but folding?...NO WAY!