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his arrangements lack that special something that phantom has always been known for, and are quite bland in comparison.

To me, whatever the corps (Regiment, Cadets, Glassmen), Hill is always high brass focused. This stands in stark contrast to the Shaw, Wren tradition which gave us "buicks" and what folks today identify as the Regiment-sound.

That is why internet broadcasts, the theater events, maybe PPV if financially viable, are things DCI has to focus on in the modern world, in addition to doing whatever they can to maximize actual physical attendance through marketing. I know a bunch of our HS MB members went to 1/4-finals at the theaters this past year, as one tiny example. Expanding the viewing options in today's world is adapting to the new world of technology. Edit: Interesting as well is that this current decade has shown the largest Broadway attendance over the past 30 years.

Seriously doubt that. A lot of us who went year after year feel burned out on Rochester. Annapolis had a lot of things to do in the immediate area. I never felt that way about Rochester. Of course when I mentioned that on another board I was told I was bullying the city of Rochester. That one still confuses me. I didn't know you could hurt a city's feelings.

At the Wildwood DCA season opener in recent years, I think more corps have come out with complete, or near-complete programs. And hats off to them for doing so!!! But... to Jeff's point... absolutely, corps "back in the day" weren't in championship form, either, in June or July. And of course we were changing things... sometimes weekly. Heck, in 1979, we (Sunrisers) changed our entire drill in July!!! But it just seems to me that more corps are struggling with their programs for longer periods now (not necessarily Bucs, Cabs, Fusion, etc.) .... and perhaps not connecting with the audience as well as they could, early on.

I know this is probably far down the list of problems... But I've wondered for some time if the general drum corps mindset of "Yeah, our show is sloppy/unreadable/not great now, and may not quite be finished (early season)... but wait until you see us at the championships!!!" is hurting overall attendance, particularly on the DCA side. Because... what if that late June or early July show is the only one I, and my family members, can attend?? What do we care what the product looks like on championship weekend?? We only care what the product looks like at the show we're attending. I am well aware that, of course, corps do get better as the season goes on, and I don't expect a "championship level" product in June, from anyone, on any level. But again... I wonder if the more complex show designs of today are helpful for the late-season product... but not so helpful for the early to mid-season product, on average, in terms of putting more shows on the field that customers (I mean the "casual" fans, not the hard-core "I follow the corps every week" fans) want to see again as the season progresses. My two cents, probably worth about one cent or less.

Yeah I'm not suggesting that Hill himself is a bad arranger, just that he's not the right areanger for Phantom.

I realize drum corps does not appear to be for those without disposable income, despite the fact that some MMs do work hard to make the money for the summer and/or crowdsource, etc. But, have there been many discussions about the costs associated with drum corps, especially the cumulative nature of them for mostly (relatively) poor college kids? I'm thinking of the costs to go to repeated camps. There's the cost to travel there and the cost of the camp. So, let's figure a tank of gas at least, sometimes two, plus camp fees. Camps seem to occur at about a monthly rate. That adds up. If you're a college kid trying to work to pay the bills, it's very hard, and yet, they love drum corps and feel pressured by staff to attend the camps. Not to mention this is right before and after the holidays when perhaps the kids and the parents are shorter on cash (not to mention, near crunch time and final exams for colleges). I feel for these members. As a parent who is planning right now for college expenses within the year, who is counseling her child to minimize debt in college, I guess I find some of this setup a bit elitist, though that's a strong word and I don't find the people of drum corps I know to be elitist. Yes, of course there are costs involved. I'm not saying it should be free. But I am saying, is it all necessary? Seems like this would be a wonderful place to start using some technology for virtual camps and whatnot. No, it's not like the real thing, but if it saves the kid $200 or more for a weekend, then maybe it's worth exploring. And as a side note, even high school marching band costs seem to be escalating beyond a typical kid's means. I really hate this. I've supported my local HS band generously, but I do think that curtailing some costs just to make the activity an option for those without independent wealth would be worth it.

To be fair, "bottom 6" only within the constraints of Top 12. One can hardly think of them as "bottom 6" in terms of World-Class Corps -- ever.

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I saw "Surf" a year or two ago - 2013 I think, and I thought they'd be a Top 6 corps in DCA - scary. My son worked with 7th Regiment from a time where they had 14 horns until last year, when they were pretty close to the size of top DCA corps. I've always wanted to see what would happen if you took a corps like that and entered them in DCA prelims. It's hard to hang with these kids. All-Age corps have some virtuoso players - Joey Pero; Frank Ponzo; the list goes on and on. But when you get down to 2nd and 3rd trumpet or baritone I think that's where the kids kill us, and honestly that's the difference in the good lines and the great lines - the balance throughout all the voices. Hy was smart enough to have great players play lower parts here and there when the voice distribution called for it - that was tough too as back in the day we were all extremely competitive about being "leads". When I returned to Sun for the 1975 season (in September '74) Teddy assigned me to 2nd baritone with Paul Williams and Theresa Conlon. I had to take a deep breath to accept the assignment - I figured out that a) I had lost some of my mojo being away for 4 years - (Duh) and b) I was going to have to do the best I could and work my balls off to get back to being a better player. I think I may have wandered off topic here, but it's the end of a very pivotal year and my brain is all over the place. First of all I hope that 2015 will be an easier year for our hostess, Ms. Nanci, who is kind and hospitable to all of us, despite our numerous flaws - certainly my numerous flaws. Nan has obviously been under a lot of stress these past months and I can only speak for myself to say that I wish I could lessen the burden, but know that I can't. Happy New Year 2015 to the Queen of Whoville. And to all my fellow Who'ers - a peaceful 2015 that finds (and keeps) you all healthy and gives you time to make music, or participate in music, or perhaps assist a younger person or persons in their desire to experience this activity that many of us helped build. 2015 - may it be 365 days long - and may we all be here to shake our heads at whatever stupid things get written on the day before 2016.

I highly suspect that they will not be "portraying" the Lady Macbeth opera story line if Hopkins wants his alumni to keep donating...

Sky's ear numbing tune was Elks Parade ... in 72 (Elks first year), we would actually make the dust rise from the floor at the Salderini Post ... my left ear is still damaged from those "power" years ... Happy New Year to all :-)

Scouts are a two time champion... Just saying.

and the fan base of DCA is aging. Fewer corps means fewer alums to stick around and stay as fans. I dont know if this is true or not, but I heard an attendance number for last year of maybe 3000 in Rochester. thats terrifying

marching band woodwind players make fun of themselves! and the key IMO to building a successful DCA organization while using DCI as a reference is "come here, learn, go do DCI, then come back". That philosophy worked well for Westshore for #### near close to 20 years. what killed Westshore was managements handling of money. But of everyone I marched with from 89-96, maybe 70% the percussion section did DCA, then DCI, then back to DCA. Guard and brass about 25%, but it was growing

"Post Prehistoric" If there were a "Firebell in the Night" evenings of drum corps it was the 1970 Mid West tour of Santa Clara Vanguard. This little known California drum corps roared into the Mid West and upset all three reigning National Champions: Chicago Cavaliers, (Legion), Casper Troopers( CYO and WO) and the Racine Kilties (VFW) at Michegan City and scored victories against the "Rest of the Best" from the Mid West.in several other contests. Things would never be the same...... Elphaba WWW

Presenting their 2015 Program: 00001010, The Cadets!

The Power of Tin? That would be uncanny.

try securing a rehearsal facility without a big budget compared to days gone by. Money has got to come from somewhere. Its a new day................well has been for decades actually. Unfortunately loving the activity isn't enough anymore. There were some great people back in the day who did things for the love of it. drum Corps needs a sharp mind. Heart over head is a big reason you dont see hundreds of corps anymore unfortunately. A very different world and that's not just about drum corps. There's the good and bad of that.

So you are speaking in binary. There are 10 kinds of people. Those who understand binary and those who don't.

Mice ... schmice ... they live on a farm ... no? ... and that farm was run by Old man McDonald ... who had a dickery ( ) ... and a hickory clock ... out by the dock ... and the mice ran up it ... the clock struck one ... and the other two got away with minor injuries ... hence, the final verse: Two blind mice ... Two blind mice ... (you get the idea) ... Andy "practicin' for my MSheee (hic) duties in 2015" Lisko the longer the show ... the better the announcing

Andy, "Mice" was St Rita's. Sun's Hy tribute was "Old McDonald". Screech was with the T-birds in '63 and '64, went to LFC for '65 and '66. John was one of our first "imports", he came down from the Bronx to the Island and Pete Cappazzoli, another lead sop, would travel up from Asbury Park. Had a few others from Elizabeth, NJ and the Bronx and Queens, NY. Methinks a few too many merlots is creating fuzzy thinking ( a no, not THAT Fuzzy either) ???

If you don't see more entertainment options available as an outlet for both participation and observation, you are hiding under the proverbial rock. Seriously - you cannot think that what was available BITD even comes close to comparing to today. And while I have heard of the family gathering around the radio for FDR's fireside chats, I guaranty you that kids were dying to get to drum corps rehearsal to get away from what they viewed as lame, or whatever the term was back then. Now, they can go up to their room, to watch their tv, play on their laptop, IPad, tablet and phone, all at the same time. There is no need to sit in the same room with mom and dad for entertainment. There is no need to have to leave your home for entertainment. And that right there is the huge issue that you are choosing not to see.

Respectfully disagree. They sounded quite amazing this past season. They still sound like Phantom. Not as powerful no, but I attribute much of that to bad arranging.

But they aren't playing the powerful classical musical arrangements "they do best." They sound like every other corps attempting to perform classical music. Their unique rich, dark, soulful sound is virtually non-existent today.

Centerville (OH) did the same thing in the early 1990s, I think even included the year they won BoA grand nationals. I'm all for it. The more members of a marching band (under which heading I include drum corps) that actually march the better.

I have delineated the problems several times and proposed a solution. My posts are there to be read by all - you are trying to redirect this conversation away from synths. You are also trying to separate them, but they are two sides of the seesaw. On the one end, we have the problems of shows, corps etc. These need to be addressed. On the other end we have the lame attempt to pretend something is being done by adding toys in the pit. In an earlier post it was stated that kids want these synths, and you yourself indicated it was in the interests of the long term health of DCA to incorporate them - for what, to attract members? Really? That paints the members as spoiled kids who will stamp their feed and won't play without the toys they want. Well band kids are used to electronics, and they are also used to woodwinds - how do you handle the questions about the lack of woodwinds in drum corps? Are there a lot, the way there seem (?) to be re synths? It's not the members, it's the designers who propose the rule changes. They're the ones who want these changes - not the members, not the audience - a handful of show designers. Tail wags the dog.

Nicely put... At 63 I'm hoping that the young people that populate the field now find as much joy in this activity as we did when we followed our dreams. If they do, they'll have done well. A great 2015 to all our brothers, sisters, nieces and nephews in the "marching arts" (you would have gotten slapped for calling it that during the 60s).

I was not in favor of this back when DCI passed this, and what has been put on the field since then has not changed my opinion. I have essentially "walked away" from DCI, simply because I'm not entertained any more. I go to one local show, and the quarters at the movie theater, and that's it-no more 4 or 5 shows, championships every year, Fan Network, media products. Do I expect that this will suddenly make DCI reverse their decision because of this lost revenue? Hardly...I just have no desire to spend my hard earned money on a product that I no longer enjoy. I still enjoy and find DCA entertaining...but for how much longer? IIRC, back when DCI shoved this through, one of the big arguments was that it would give designers more creative license...I've stated this before, but a truly good designer should be able to design a show that is demanding to the marchers and entertaining to the audience within what were the parameters before this passed. Think of a competency exam-for anything (CPA, real estate, driver's license). Should the exams be made easier simply to ensure a higher passing percentage? "The kids want this"...about 10 yrs ago, I was in an alumni corps and we had several high school kids join the corps...they said they wanted to do something that was "more than band". Electronics never entered the equation. Of those five, two more continued on into DCI corps and one went on to The Commandant's Own (pretty sure there's no synths there!). Although I am hopeful that this rule change doesn't change at least my personal enjoyment of DCA, I'm not optimistic. Yes, the numbers have to change-but I'm not confident that this is the magic wand.

Don't forget pants and underwear

Excellent post Horn Teacher. Another point the OP has to consider is that members are being asked to pay less than half of the cost of a member's participation. The corps raise the rest through fundraising, donations, performance fees, etc. Some corps have begun to reduce the number of camps that members must attend in favor of using tools like SmartMusic. This not only reduces member costs of traveling to camps, but reduces the corps cost of operating the camps (rental of facilities, feeding everyone, travel costs for staff and admin, etc.). This helps keep member costs from increasing.

I don't view this subject any differently than for a child who wishes to pursue additional avenues in the athletic world. Maybe not so much in the team sport arena (although that area can be financially frightening as well), but most certainly in the more individualized sports (competitive figure skating, skiing, equestrian, and maybe even track and field, although I am less familiar with that specific area). I can speak from experience in terms of the figure skating world; my daughter was involved in the activity for about 9 years, beginning at the age of 6. We NEVER pushed her into it -- she decided for herself early on that she wanted to do it. We thought "O.K. -- cute. Nice little activity. She'll outgrow it, though." Well...4 years later, she and her Ice Dance partner qualified for USFSA (United States Figure Skating Association) Junior Nationals. Soo...ice time...coaching...outfits...more ice time...more coaching...outgrown skates...travel and housing for competitions...Plane flights to Nationals (and later Senior National Sectionals)...Test sessions...more ice time...more coaching...more...more...more... . It was a very painful day when my wife and I had to sit her down and explain the "facts of life." Plainly put: it had to end (and as further proof of my daughter's strength and maturity: while she sobbed and cried with Harrigan-like appropriatness "Why?? Why??", she adapted. And gracefully so. Dad is still bearing the guilt. And whle she moved on. I'm not sure Dad EVER has.), she ended up handling it a lot better than I did. I'm still not at peace with what I (albeit, with understandable assurance) robbed her of. The gold at the end of the rainbow, however, was that she suddenly KNEW her school friends. She was able to get involved in her school activities and team sports (at which she instantly excelled in Volleyball and Soccer). She also had more time available to further pursue her trumpet studies (which made this trumpet-playing Dad quite happy, to say the least, since at comparable ages, she was light-years ahead of the old man at the same point in his life). I comfort myself with the age-worn words "Father knows best." and leave it at that. Yes, it (Drum Corps) is expensive. And no, it is not for everybody. That is not an elitist viewpoint on my part -- but rather, a simply and economically factual one. But -- whatever a child or person chooses to pursue, it is important to remember that the activity exists for the child to pursue and enjoy (but always on the activity's terms)...the child does not exist for the activity. That may seem harsh, but it's true. Whatever we choose, we choose to do on the activity's terms. The activity won't change to facilitate our ease. If you find the once-in-a-million situation where allowances are made, then please be sure to accept it with good grace...and know just how incredibly fortunate you most probably are. I wish your child well, and he or she has my strongest thoughts and wishes for an enjoyable, personally satisfying, and educationally successful experience. And by educationally successful, I'm not speaking merely in terms of music -- but rather as a maturation and life experience as well.

For some mm, it's not an easy solution. Those with the talent and want to march a top corps have to come up with the funds. I'm guessing those same top corps expect each mm to attend their Winter camps and that's mentioned during the auditions. If a mm cannot meet their requirements, they move on to the next qualified mm. Either a mm with limited funds really works hard to raise the money in many different ways, or they have to lower their desires and march with a corps that doesn't travel as much and has fewer off season camps. Since the beginning of DCI, this problem has always reared its ugly head. Once outside sponsorship faded away, corps have folded because they couldn't raise the money. As for HS bands, I'd say the bigger the band, the more props/equipment they use, the more funds they will need. At the HS level, do not parents have more say in what the goals should be?

the price certainly keeps some people away... but for many corps, with multiple people lining up to audition for each spot, I don't think there would be a benefit to the corps to charge less. Likewise no incentive to cut camps. I do think corps are now doing assignments between camps with youtube/facebook. Drum corps is generally an upper middle class activity, IMO... they are the ones that can afford to drop thousands of dollars to do this. I know kids that have taken time off from school to march, and kids that have taken out student loans and used some of that money to march as well. As far as HS, I know it is really expensive at the top of the BOA world, but I don't really know what it costs at an average high school... I would guess it doesn't cost too much.

Beautiful shot with the flags in mid-air!!!

And a couple more:

Finals, 1985. This opening set would've been pretty difficult to notate in a dot book: Middle of back entrance tunnel, 2 steps from the crowd. And somehow, in about 64 counts, we went from this: To this:

Garfield Cadets, 1985 - Giants Stadium:

A couple more from Giants Stadium. These are significant to me because my sister, Kathy, & I marched together for 11 seasons, and this was the only time we were ever staged side-by-side in all of our years together. Dad loved the end of "America", because it was the one time he could get 2 "kid shots" in one frame!

No, not at all, but I think what makes these signature moves great is the way they're constantly reinvented and reworked for the show each year. BD's guard's 8's, for example; everyone knows they're coming, but each year they're at a different point in the show and staged differently. Likewise, BAC's "Conquest" melody is played in minor chords this year to fit the theme of the show this year. I'm all for Crowngaurd having a signature, and an impressive one to boot, but I'd like to see them expand on it. Certainly, I would get a little tired of a hornline starting N shows with a variation on the same 8th note run; this is no different.

and even with those resources, it still took Star time to crack the top 5. just having big names and money alone won't do it. time and patience is also required

or...you can do like a Crown and Blue Stars and do things to retain them! imagine that...novel concept. you do realize when Blue Stars finally broke into WC and made noise, they had kids in the corps that had been there since the D3 days right? so right there, thats kills your argument. guess what...drum corps isnt about local loyalties anymore, and hasn't been for years. corps hopping has been something happening since at least the 70's, and from stories I've seen on here, well before then.

Its like most, if not all, of the professional soccer leagues in Europe. England has had pretty much the same top 4 teams for years. The top 2 have been the same in Ireland for most of 50 years. Real Madrid and Barca duke it out in Spain. It goes on and on throughout the rest of Europe. But, none of this makes Man City's fans (or any of the other good teams that don't stand a chance of winning the league) any less passionate. I think comparing this to boxing is slightly unfair.

I hate to start the ring chaser argument, because that's not really what this is about, but lets go there for a second...and look at the reasons people march in a top corps. These are not in any particular order. Reason 1 - grew up loving the corps. I dont even live in Jersey, but I have a lot of friends that have loved the cadets (in MD) since they were first introduced to band. My friends and family in jersey, mostly grew up with the corps, and there was never any other place TO march. My sister grew up watching me march....guess where she wound up?? Reason 2 - marketing- ties into reason 1, but how many people list their favorite show as cadets 2000, scv 89, BD 94, Cavies 04, etc?... When talking about new fans to the activity, the fact is that the first shows their friend or band director EVER shows them is going to probably be a famous championship show, or something close in notoriety. When people grow up with a certain corps, chances are they're going to march in that corps if at all possible. Reason 3 - staff / connections. More people go to where the big names are. Call it a negative if you must, but with DCI being more about 'education' (which yes, is an arguable point), kids go where the famous staff is. They also go where they have connections...or where their boa staff teaches in some cases.....and this is HUGE for winterguard. Now, does the best staff winding up at the best corps sort of perpetuate this cycle...mostly, but look at madison this year for example. Before a single word was said about their show design or retro uniform, there was already HUGE hype about them, and all the kids that would be clamoring to audition there. Kids, especially college students often look for what kind of musical value they're going to get out of their experience, and go where the best teachers are. Reason 4 - THEY WANT TO BE AMAZING. I dont know how else to put this, and I'm sorry if offends somebody, but if you have been marching in a smaller corps for a few years, only have 1 or 2 years left, and have spent years watching these top groups perform, you may want to be a part of that. Most of the people i know that came up to Cadets from another corps didnt do it to chase a ring, they did it to be a part of THE FREAKING CADETS!....I dont know, maybe I'm naive, but thats kind of a big deal to people. Im sure the same thing happens to people that go to BD or Cavies. Do those 3 have the best statistical chance of winning any given year?....sure, but they also have the best chance of being holy-crap-thats-so-insane-its-legendary each year as well. For someone that can only afford to march DCI 1 more time, there really is no other choice if you want that experience. Pretty much without exception, the reason people in 2005 in my corps were happy after finals wasn't because we got a piece of metal....they were happy because we were freaking AWESOME. I dont know, maybe it sounds like the same thing to some, but to me, those reasons dont sound like ring chasing to me. Chasing history, tradition, excellence?....finding the best fit, going where you always dreamed?....yeah. Ring chasing?...not so much... Oh, and I have more reasons, but i think this is enough for now -------- disclaimer - I recognize that ring chasers DO exist, but by and large they are few in number, and not really indicative of the general mobility of the dci populace. Additionally, I recognize that there is also a TON of value to be had in other kinds of marching experiences, and am in no way trying to put those down. Thank you, and good night

Do you remember in 2006 midseason when we had an AWFUL show (the entire drum break was one huge ensemble tear...even the snareline wasn't on the same beat of each measure) and not only did we still beat Phantom by a pretty decent margin, but we also creamed them in drums? I remember being so confused about how that could happen.

It wouldn't change a darn thing. Judges know who is who from the 1000s of other factors. Colts have never played as well together as BD. Colts have never played as well in tune as BD. Colts have never marched as well as BD. To really find out what's up, we'd have to pick a year and make every corps march the same show, with the same instrumentation, same book,same guard work,etc. And we'd have to randomly select the membership. Leave the staffs in place, and see what happens. (This would be for the people who think the staff makes the difference, but membership talent doesn't) OR...leave the membership be (assumes more talent in top 6 vs rest), and move the staffs around. That would be fun too. (This would be for the people who think staffs don't matter, but membership talent does.)

It takes solid, consistent growth both off AND ON the performance field. The only drum corps to truly climb the tree in the past 20 years or so is Crown. Bluecoats were close in 2006, but staff changes/design changes threw them off course. Lots of people think Crown is great now, but back in 2003, #### that drum corps was bad. They sucked it up for quite a few years before reaching the level they're at right now, and they're STILL getting better. It takes that right combination of staff, admin, and member retention in order to reach those goals. So to answer your question, I'll just repeat what Piper said. To eat the fruit, you must first climb the tree. Oh, and groups have to pay their dues too. They have to prove that they are consistently good.

I think it'd be interesting to see how corps would place if the first week they all had to compete in black shorts and white shirts. Obviously it'd be apparent which ones were the Scouts/Cavies but beyond that there wouldn't be THAT much else to identify corps.