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I think where the controversy comes in is that diversity of opinion is one thing, diversity and opinions based on exclusion is quite another thing

putting on my non-opinion lawyer hat, I think it's important to deflate the '19 other states' element that keeps being repeated. While it's true that 19 other states and the federal government have passed nearly identical RFRA laws, this does not make the situation the same. the 'teeth' of a state's RFRA law are determined by other supporting or preventative laws. example: illinois passed their RFRA in 1998, but then in 2005 passed a non-discrimination law that specifically prevents the kind fo Title2 infringements that people are concerned about in this particular thread. there are a variety of perceived harms and benefits to the RFRA, and states have different levels of protection/authority. so it is not strictly true to speak of '19 states' as being equal in regard to implementation of an RFA.

Your analogy isn't applicable. A person smoking in public is infringing on the rights of the non-smokers who are forced to breathe the toxins that they are spreading putting their health and well being at risk. I fully support the rights of anyone to do whatever they want in private - like kill themselves slowly with tobacco. But they do not have the right to inflict their toxic wastes on me or my family in public.

Is 4 closed posts in two days a new record here?

OK dan...my wife and I go to a restaurant with two gay friends. How is it a political agenda wanting our friends to be able to eat with us and not be kicked out? Few decades back it could have been 2 black friends refused service because God told Moses not to mix the (Hebrew and Egyptian) races in Exodus. Know some people who still use that as a reason "not to mix the races" today. Or was that an "agenda" (whatever that means) too. Hey if a business doesn't want certain groups then they should post signs so everyone knows it. But they shouldn't cry if people take exception and take their business else where. To make this On Topic as I can: Does DCI have an agenda if they want all the participants not to be discriminated against?

Seems many of you aren't so tolerant of diversity of opinion.

Mods: You have shown exceptional tolerance (see what I did there?) by allowing this thread to run. Thank you.

As to the speculation that the affected drum corps population could be as high as 20% ... regardless of whatever that percentile is, it would be an oversite to assume that their friends and loved ones within the community would not take a stance to support them as well. The following not directed specifically at garfield: The fact that we all know this law is directed at LGBT, (and those for and against it here discuss it as such), but turn to general paper-pusher talk to defend it sickens me. I cannot remember a time that I have been more ashamed to have been born, raised and still lived in Indiana. I can only take pride in the fact that my loved ones, mostly hoosiers, don't operate in this world like Mike Pence does.

This isn't a comment about the law so much as it is a comment about one of the reasons I think drum corps is so unique. It brings together very diverse groups of people... and pretty much everybody gets along and tolerance is free flowing. All are focused on the goals and doing the work rather than the differences. How cool is that? (I think it's really cool.) I looked up the law and for the guy who asked what it is, it means businesses can legally discriminate against, say, LGBT folks based on religious beliefs. I can totally understand why LGBT would be reticent to show up to Indy if they think they might be refused service in restaurants or hotels. I think this is really a great conversation to have. The contribution that the LGBT community makes to drum corps is absolutely IMMEASURABLE and that should be a top consideration.

That's exactly what I am saying. The problem is that there is a subset of the population at large that preaches respect and tolerance - but ONLY if you agree with them.

Frankly - I'm tired of any segment of the population telling me what I should believe, but ESPECIALLY that segment that screams from the rooftops about tolerance and equality - but only if you agree with them. I couldn't care less about what anyone else believes or does as long as it doesn't threaten me. None of my business what 2 (or more ) consenting adults think or do, but neither do they have a right to tell me what I should think or do.

You mean I won't be able to stumble out of a bar drunk, refuse to be picked up by any of the 99 out of 100 taxis available, and force the one poor guy who isn't to violate his own religion? If that is the case, then by all means DCI should deplete its limited resources by uprooting long term plans that it had otherwise concluded to be the best for DCI and risk its fragile resources searching for a location where every city, county and state law will be approved of by 100% of its fan base. Or we could be adults, respect the democratic process, observe what happens, and then IF there is a problem that affects DCI and IF it is not corrected legisltatively and IF DCI cannot remedy it themselves then they can weigh it against all other factors in making a responsible decision. Returning the thread to its appropriate off topic chain, I liked the Cadets show in 1999 and wonder if someone kept the taxi as a souvenir.

Whoa. Not according to the Constitution. Article VI, Paragraph 2, commonly known as the Supremacy Clause. "It establishes that the federal constitution, and federal law generally, take precedence over state laws, and even state constitutions." There is the Tenth Amendment, of course, which reserves to the states powers not specifically assigned to the federal government. But this is not a blank check to the states. You may recall that spot of trouble when a group of states, invoking the 10th Amendment, announced they would not heed federal instruction on certain matters. We fought a civil war over that, settling the question of who has the Last Word. As for local law "trumping" state law, that's . . . inventive thinking. Many states do recognize the concept of "home rule," but that is a carve-out provision giving municipalities room to adopt their own ordinances on matters that otherwise would be left to the state. But that is not permission to ignore state law.

While I think the law will have little, if any, practical impact anyone who attributes the motivations behind it to concern about the Amish are either ignorant or, worse, disingenuous. I'm a church going Republican and frankly this whole charade is disgusting.

And in that "other sport" world.... NCAA looking into their options after the current contracts run out.. "other sport" = non-Drum Corps LOL....

I looked up the law and for the guy who asked what it is, it means businesses can legally discriminate against, say, LGBT folks based on religious beliefs. I can totally understand why LGBT would be reticent to show up to Indy if they think they might be refused service in restaurants or hotels. Now one knows how a person who chooses to use tobacco products feels...............and smokers are fortunate enough to even be taxed on the "legal" products they use and are discriminated for using......................

I think most would agree that pulling up stakes and leaving town is not something that DCI could easily accomplish (and even the gamer convention that protested the bill before its signing is contractually locked in until 2020), but a statement emphasizing its commitment to inclusion and fairness at all its events would be a very good PR move for the organization right about now. All I know is that my network of friends is not happy about the silence so far. For an activity with such a strong representation of gays in the creative and visual elements, as both designers and participants for decades and decades, it is more than a little tone deaf to not at least release a carefully worded statement. For those saying the gay percentage of the fan base and participants is 20% "at most," seriously?! That's bordering on a River in Egypt sort of thing. 35% minimum is a safer guess, and that's probably still very conservative.

*non-opinion lawyer hat* "Religious freedom restoration act. Provides that a state or local government action may not substantially burden a person's right to the exercise of religion unless it is demonstrated that applying the burden to the person's exercise of religion is: (1) essential to further a compelling governmental interest; and (2) the least restrictive means of furthering the compelling governmental interest. Provides that a person whose exercise of religion has been substantially burdened, or is likely to be substantially burdened, by a state or local government action may assert the burden as a claim or defense in a judicial proceeding, regardless of whether the state or a political subdivision of the state is a party to the judicial proceeding. Allows a person who asserts a burden as a claim or defense to obtain appropriate relief, including: (1) injunctive relief; (2) declaratory relief; (3) compensatory damages; and (4) recovery of court costs and reasonable attorney's fees." AN interpretation of that law is that the state/local government will not intervene against an individual/business that performs a normally actionable offense if they perform said action/inaction due to religious motivations. how this relates to DCI is that some people worry that businesses will violate title2 (equal access) and claim they did so because of their religion. there are many, many more qualified people who are interpreting and predicting the consequences of this act who you could turn to, I suggest doing research on your favorite and least favorite media sites...that way you get both sides of the story :)

NO IT DOES NOT. Read the friggin' law before you spout conclusions. Schools are GOVERNMENT entities.

I don't think anyone is telling you WHAT to believe, only we should each respect the other and LET each other be who we are. Respect and Tolerance

Do you have good seats? Can I buy your tickets? I just decided to go to help counteract people like you that have chosen not to support a wonderful activity in order to make a political statement. Never mind the fact that the organization you're hurting has nothing to do with the percieved wrong you're trying to right. On second thought, I'll buy my tickets direct from DCI and let you eat yours.

I like some of your posts, but your melodramatic statements accusing others of pretty much the same thing are something else. Sniper-terrorism? That pretty much leaves me speechless.

"The conflicts over gay rights and contraception are polarizing the country and endangering religious liberty more generally," he wrote. "Neither side in these fights seems to have any respect for the liberty of the other." THIS is why DCI should not, in any way, be dragged into a debate regarding Indiana's law. I like my drum corp loud and tasty, without a single hint of political correctness.

Hey, you can't say that! Some religions prohibit consumption of pork. Some musicians subscribe to those religions. You're insulting non-pork-eating musicians. Hater. (I haven't come across any sub-groups are prohibited from eating waffles, however.)

I like waffles, but biscuits give me indigestion.

Sorry to derail the derailed derailment guys. Please return to syrup and holes.

Thank goodness for Neil Degrasse Tyson - one of the, if not "the" most intelligent people on the planet.

From the perspective of "fandom", a lack of universal love for any group does not automatically qualify as the existence of a universal hatred -- any more so than a lack of universal hatred (or "non-support") instantly indicates a universal love (or "support"). Like almost any and every thing in life, the truth is always going to fall somewhere in the middle. Why should this activity be any different? Stating the obvious, I know...but sometimes (human nature being what it is) I think this gets lost in the translation somehow.

I'm not sure what that has to do with the claims that the crowd (the tone suggested to me a huge portion of the crowd, like perhaps the majority, but I'd be happy to accept any clarification on that point) was taunting BD and cheering not so much for Phantom as against BD. As overwhelming evidence to the contrary on that point, I would submit the response of the crowd when Phantom played that night, long before anyone knew who was going to win.If the behavior of some fans of a given corps that you happen to encounter could be said to characterize an organization, or all of its fans, or everyone who roots for them or cheered enthusiastically for them on a given night, then based on everything I've seen for the past 20 years, you would have some bad news for anyone here who has ever been part of, a fan of, rooted for or cheered enthusiastically for ANY highly competitive corps here...

I hope they get rid of the epaulets. IMO the uniform is really attractive but the epaulets didn't look quite right.

I usually agree with the things you say here and you often show more maturity than members 2 or 3 times your age, but wow, I really don't think that limiting a drum corps board to discussion of drum corps has anything to do with authoritative attitudes or suppression of ideas. There is no shortage of places on the Internet to discuss just about anything you want, and no one is stopping you from starting your own drum corps site with forums that allow discussion of anything that's legal. But if you do that, I think you will find that the conversations quickly derail from drum corps and degenerate into a cesspool of uncivil and irrational discourse that has little to do with ideas and runs off so many people that rational ideas never see the light of day.

"Ho ho ho." That is what he said. That is what Kris Kringle said.

My sister got me interested in Drum Corps. I started attending parades and so forth, while she marched with the Blue Angels Drum and Bell Corps from San Lorenzo, Ca., from the time I was 9, and thru my 13th year of my life. The one thing that always intrigued me were the tenors. From then on, I wanted to be in DC. I would take my set of sticks and CONSTANTLY play along with the album recording from Combine West '71. (Cavaliers show) God I loved SCV back then. In 1971, I had asked my sister to see if I could join the Blue Angels, I had the "fever" bigtime by then, but she was advised at the time, that I was not good enough to be a member of the Corps. That's cool, no worries....heh. Finally, her and I decided to join the Royalaires Drum and Bugle Corps (where I met Scott Johnson), from close by San Leandro, Ca. I auditioned, and was accepted to play bass in the drumline. Sis and I remained with the Royalaires until 1974, when the corps merged with the Stockton Commodores, to form the Royal Commodores, which lasted one season. Then came the turning point in our DC lives...........1975. She had always adored the Vanguard, as did I, but by then, I had grown an admiration for the Blue Devils jazz sound. So off I went to Concord, and she to Santa Clara. Then the fun began, she with her VERY conservative Vanguard, and me with the swashbuckling Blue Devils. SCV had just come off a DCI Champoinship year, and the Devils had just made a jump from 24th in '73 to 9th in '74. I always liked an underdog. :P Drum Corps from that point on was an interesting topic in our house, but Mom and Dad always stayed neutral, and did what most parents would do in that case, cheer for BOTH sides! In '75, SCV ended up in 2nd, and we (Blue Devils) in 3rd (we had beat SCV quite a few times throughout the year, including the World Open, and CYO Nationals leading up to Finals week), so no "blood" had been spilled.........yet. :P Then came 1976, the year that gave me SO much joy, yet so much sorrow also. For those of you who don't know, the 1976 Blue Devils dominated DCI in a way that no other had EVER done, as we swept all captions, and won by 2 FULL POINTS! What I will remember most about 1976, was the announcer in Philly......... "in 2nd place, with a score of nine zero, point seven zero........................the Madison Scouts!" - The world stopped for me and I'm sure the rest of us in the corps for a few moments. We all jumped, hugged, kissed (heh), threw our shakos in the air, ran around like little kids. Pure pandomonium had broken out. I can vividly remember the euphoria that was going through my body at that moment. At that particular retreat at finals, we were staged between the Scouts and SCV. At a time that I thought NOTHING could change what I was feeling, something did. As I made my way around the corps to congratulate my co-members, I looked towards the Vanguard, and what I saw, made the title seem meaningless. - My sister had been in DC since 1967. - She was my hero for twirling her baton, while the drummers drummed, and the bell players played, I LOVED watching them. - She had brought me to the activity that really gave me some direction and MUCH joy in my young life. - She tried desperately to get me into Blue Angels. - She brought me along to join the Royalaires. - SHE looked out for her little brother. What I saw that night in Philly, STILL chokes me up to this day. I saw my sister, standing at attention in the proud Vanguard traditon, her knee's buckling, overcome with emotion, trying to keep from breaking down, heart broken, exhausted, but she dug deep inside, and showed the pride that SHE had taught me. - In the span of 2 or 3 minutes, Time stood still for me again. Everything that happened in 1976, the hard work, the sweat, the thousands of hours of practice, meant absolutely NOTHING to me. The only thing I could focus on was my sister, and the pain that she had to be feeling that night. After the years of marching she had experienced, and was gracious enough to let her little brother "tag along", it was I who had just gone to the pinnacle of Drum Corps. I felt like someone had just ripped my heart out. It was not allowed to break the SCV ranks, especially at Nationals, or break any corps rank in general. I felt SO helpless, this was not a casual acquaintance that I was looking at in pain, this was my own flesh and blood, my sister. If I could have changed uniforms with her at that moment, I would have....afterall, SHE deserved it more than I did. I wanted SO bad to go over to her and hug her, tell her that they had given it all they could, that I loved her for what she had given me the opportunity to accomplish in DC. But I couldn't. Retreat had ended, SCV left the field, and my sis and I didn't see each other until we came home to Cali. I learned something that night in Philly, that heart was more important than winning. That giving was more important than receiving. My sister gave so many things to me in life, and in Drum Corps, including the championship in 1976. So I will take this opportunity to say........... Thank you sis, for on the night of August 21, 1976......it was you who was the champion on the field.

DCI moving from Indy ain't gonna happen. For a long, long time. Take it the bank. If the contract extension isn't already signed, it will be soon. In reality, there were no other suitors, and it's unlikely that another package could have been found anywhere else. == I find it interesting to see the defense offered of "difference of opinion" regarding the specific law, given that if I put homosexuality (along with skin color, hand domination, hair color) on one side of the Reality Scale, and "religious beliefs" on the other side of the scale, the genetic characteristics side slams down firmly each and every time. Not surprising, given that it's the only one of the two sides that, in fact, carries the weight of reality. So to say that a person who believes that homosexuality is an abomination should be able to use that otherwise indefensible position as a basis for doing actual harm to real people is a little bizarre. At what point does the crazy "opinion train" stop? You can have an opinion that the moon is made of blue cheese, but that doesn't mean that "your opinion" - individual and protected as it may be - should be forced into science textbooks as a valid alternative theory to the theories based on actual exploration of the lunar surface.

I'm moving to Pluto. This planet is ridiculous.

unfortunately, most ignorance is based on assumption and fear and lack of education. BUT, even if it were obvious in some way, still wouldn't make it right.

It's funny to see the "tolerance" word hammered in this thread. Tolerance has nothing to do with this. There's a political agenda at play here. There is no tolerance here of differing opinions.

<OK honoring edit also> I'm sure there are a lot of people in the DC world who see it as a PERSONAL matter. Not being politically correct or being a flavor of the month, etc. DC has always been about the human side and I don't know how or why the human side is missed in the discussion by some.

Edit: Let's just agree to disagree. I'm amazed this thread's still open.

I say we should impeach the Indiana governor because he has now derailed my Best And Worst Uniform Thread!

DCI's full statement in response to the new law: Drum Corps International and our participating organizations remain committed to providing an inclusive and welcoming environment for every one of the thousands of diverse student participants, volunteers, staff members and fans taking part in the more than 100 events we stage annually throughout the United States of America. We recognize that recent legislation in our home state (as well as proposed and existing legislation in many other states) may be perceived as having a potential impact on the positive experience of our young performers, employees and passionate supporters. We will continue to work with our Indianapolis partners as well as those in Michigan City, Muncie, Evansville and Ft. Wayne to ensure that we fulfill our goal of providing a safe and appropriate environment which supports and celebrates the pursuit of excellence at each of the events we produce in Indiana. We will also work diligently as an association to understand any and all implications of the new laws brought forth by the passing of this and other legislation and the potential effects they will have on our operations and people, at home and across the country. This is a good response, in my opinion, as it shows that they're aware of the issue both on a local and a national basis. It would have been to hear them encourage fans to continue attending the Indiana events rather than consider boycotting, but overall, a pretty positive response.

I like the Santa Clara Vanguard. Looking forward to 2015!

Who knows- but there's no reason fans can't by boycotting finals, bringing signs, etc. Before this gets closed again, I'd like to encourage people who are still considering going to finals to take a look at this site. Some good people in Indiana just recently started this campaign for supportive businesses to identify themselves and make themselves known that their doors are open to all customers despite the new law. I'll be going to Indy this August and I plan on relying on this to put my money where my mouth is. http://www.openforservice.org/

Agree BUT a twist on that is . why respect and abide the laws of a state or at least contribute to their economy when they exclude.. just a thought

Debate no.... getting hit over sales we shall see.... Kicker is reading over the history of the law, it seemed to be written to protect the rights of religious groups(s) and their practices. Amish and their refusal to vaccinate comes to mind. How this morphed into individuals using it to deny service to who they (don't) like beats me......

I love Jiffy. Here is my recipe. 1. Take two slices of white bread. 2. Cover with butter. 3. Now cover with Jiffy peanut butter. Not crunchy peanut butter because that is nasty. 4. Now apply Welches Raspberry jam to both slices. 5. Join slices together.

A 'jiffy" is also equivalent to a "Pop." Two jiffies would be a "Pop-Pop"...but that would bring us to a German grandfather, which is quite another thing altogether.

Yes, for some reason when I type on DCP .....sometimes some letters aren't being seen. It is YOUR OPINION!

#racetogether ... #jazzruntogether ?

Am I the only one here who truly loathes these uniforms? The fade went out of style nearly a half-decade beforehand, and I personally do not like the red to purple to black coloring, compounded by the fact that the put on fade ON A LEG STRIPE TOO!!! Also, the white at the top and the color split on the plume look clunky from every direction but head-on. The Colt Cadets uniform is a much sharper looking one, and I think it would have been better on the A corps. EDIT: Also just noticed that my first Vanguard miss pic was changed for a broken link, and I must admit that the new pic is a tad more flattering for that look. The link to the page with the original image is http://www.angelfire.com/pa5/uniformicons/. My opinion still stands, too much green.